Marvin Lewis Number 1 failure

[PDub80]

(10-07-2016, 01:15 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: In summary, you don't think Marv has any major flaws and you have an excuse for 90% of his failures. At what point does the prime-time and playoff records become "not a coincidence"? This is Marv's 14th season and we have a mountain of evidence that involves 2 talented cores of players.

At what point do you stop making excuses (quality of opponent, not enough talent, etc) and start thinking maybe the problem is Marv and/or some of the more tenured coaches? Btw, if the team has lacked talent (you mention 05 and 09 specifically), then how did they win 21 games and division titles in those seasons? Does talent level only become evident in post season? We should've beaten the Sanchize Jets at home for sure. We were winning at half against the Steelers and Kitna came out hot, but per usual for the playoffs, we came out flat in the 2nd half.

Hell, then you got 5 more games after that. That's just playoffs. Not even touching on the prime time record. I could see excusing a couple games, but 7? At some point you have to stop picking out excuses for each individual game and start looking at the whole picture. 7 playoff games is plenty of evidence.

Marvin's biggest flaw, IMO, is that he is too risk adverse in a modern NFL that rewards risk.

His mentality is to play not to lose and he handcuffs his coordinators (except Hue) into this conservative approach. Times have changed in the NFL and Marvin hasn't adapted.

The thing that kills me is that since Marvin's been here the Bengals are at their best when they go out there and let it rip like they belong there killing it. Play to kick ass! They have the talent, just not the mentality.

[fredtoast]

(10-07-2016, 01:15 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: In summary, you don't think Marv has any major flaws and you have an excuse for 90% of his failures. At what point does the prime-time and playoff records become "not a coincidence"? This is Marv's 14th season and we have a mountain of evidence that involves 2 talented cores of players.

At what point do you stop making excuses (quality of opponent, not enough talent, etc) and start thinking maybe the problem is Marv and/or some of the more tenured coaches? Btw, if the team has lacked talent (you mention 05 and 09 specifically), then how did they win 21 games and division titles in those seasons? Does talent level only become evident in post season? We should've beaten the Sanchize Jets at home for sure. We were winning at half against the Steelers and Kitna came out hot, but per usual for the playoffs, we came out flat in the 2nd half.

Hell, then you got 5 more games after that. That's just playoffs. Not even touching on the prime time record. I could see excusing a couple games, but 7? At some point you have to stop picking out excuses for each individual game and start looking at the whole picture. 7 playoff games is plenty of evidence.

Lack of talent is not an "excuse".  It is a reason.  Marvin has lost 2 playoff games that he was favored to win, and I say the '09 team should not have been favored.  Two games is not a "mountain of evidence".

If good coaching always trumps talent then why do most of the same coaches that win Super Bowls also have losing seasons?  Jeff Fisher went to a Super Bowl but it would be crazy to claim he is a better coach than Marvin right now.

As far as his "prime time record" what most people here seem to be saying is that prime time games really don't make a difference and it is actually about losing to good teams.  Over the last 3 years the Bengals have been one of the best teams in the league against other teams with winning records.  What Marvin is accomplishing is very hard.  Very few coaches have matched him.

Are there a few NFL coaches I thinkar better than Marvin?  Absolutely.  Are any of them available to come here and replace Marvin?  No.

I can see rolling the dice with an unknown if we were floundering, but we are too close to take that chance. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-07-2016, 12:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: From what I can see it is not just one single thing.  Personally I don't think that coaching in the postseason is that much different than coaching in the regular season.  Pretty much the best regular season coaches are also the best post season coaches.  Marvin is an anomaly.  If there really was some super secret to being a better post season coach than regular season coach then I think we would see a lot more examples of coaches like Marvin who have strikingly different records in the post season than in the regular season.  

Most of his career Marvin has not had the talent to win championships.  His '05 team had an elite offense but did not have the defense to win a championship.  

'05 team was destroyed by injury and suspension in just two seasons.  By '08 ..... Braham-gone, Pollack-gone, Thurman-gone, Henry-gone, Deltha Oneal-gone, Rudi-gone, Levi Jones-never returned to pre-injury level,  Willie Anderson-never returned to pre-injury form.  Plus they lost Justin Smith and Eric Steinbach to free-agency.

'09 team was smoke an mirrors.  Marvin did a great job getting 10 wins out of a team with so little talent, but when Chris Henry was lost to injury our entire passing game collapsed and the offense crashed.  But Marvin brought back the unbalanced line (mainly because 3 of his starters were undrafted free agents with just 6 total NFL starts), and got some decent production form cheap cast offs (Benson, Dhani Jones, Tank Johnson).  Plus Mike Zimmer arrived and fixed our defense.  Marvin was hired as a defensive guru, but he never had a good defense until Zimmer arrived.  However by the end of the year that team was running on fumes.  Over their last 5 games they were 1-4 and outscored 65-118.  They were 2.5 point favorites in the playoff game, but that team really didn't have the talent to win a playoff game against a team that both the #1 defense in the league and the #1 rushing game.

'10 was a dumpster fire.  Because of all the drama and magic surrounding the '09 team (multiple come-from-behind last minute wins, the Vicki Zimmer game, the Chris Henry game) many people did not realize how deeply flawed they were.  TO was seen as the missing piece for a Super Bowl contender.  Then the wheels fell off.  I really can not argue with anyone who called for Marvin to be fired after the '10 season.  At that point he had had 8 years and he did not look close to winning a championship.

However, even though many experts claimed we wopuld be the worst team in the league in '11 Marvin made the playoffs with a rookie starting QB.  But the Bengals were 4 point underdogs on the road in both the '11 and '12 playoffs.

'13 was the first time that the Bengals were favored to win a playoff game and they laid a big egg at home.  I was there and as disgusted as everyone else, but at that point the Bengals were winning against good teams during the regular season.  I really felt that we had what it took to beat good teams in the playoffs.  

'14 team was destroyed by injury.

'15 team was missing starting QB but lost in a melt down.

Marvin is obviously not an elite NFL, coach but he does not deserve much of the criticism he gets around here for certain issues.  He struggles a bit with clock management, but that has never cost us a game.  He is criticized for not "making adjustments", but the numbers show that his teams do well in the third quarter and come form behind to win more than most other teams.  He gets criticized for being too conservative with a lead, but again the numbers show that he is about league average when it comes to running the ball with a lead int he second half.  In fact one loss I blame on coaching was against Tampa Bay in '10 when the Bengals threw the ball when they should not have.  He gets criticized for using time out  early but I see other teams do that all the time.  

But the criticism for his sideline demeanor and press conferences is just ridiculous.  In fact it proves my point that many people here have a personal hatred for Marvin more because of his personality than how he coaches.  Personally I don't care about a coaches demeanor as long as he is not embarrassing the team.  Screaming and yelling is not as effective as many people here think.  It might work with high school kids, but you don't win at the NFL based on your ability to scream.

So I think Marvin does not have one big weakness.  Instead it is a lot of little things.  

Finally I think too many people around here give coaching all the blame and credit for everything, but in fact, except for a couple of rare exceptions pretty much every coach has an up and down career that include winning seasons and losing seasons.  Marvin has not had "the most talented roster in the league" like some people claim.  The players who vote for the top 100 players do not agree.  the fans who vote for the pro Bowl do not agree.  The media members who pick the All-pro teams do not agree.  In fact the only people making that claim are usually trying to make up a reason to blame Marvin.

Thanks for answering Fred. Long, drawn out post that alludes to some weaknesses yet pretty much excuses them all.

Kind of what i expected and maybe there are a few fans that have a personal hatred for Marv cause of his personality
but that is not 90% or so of the people in this thread. It is his coaching that stands out or the lack there of. His half time
adjustments have been poor in big games. We were leading 10-7 against the Chargers in a Playoff game and we don't
score a single point in the 2nd half. Bad halftime adjustment.

This year against the Steelers and Broncos our two losses were bad halftime adjustments as well. The refs sure didn't
help against the Steelers but we should expect that by now.

Marvin puts together damn good teams and works well with players but his coaching leaves much to be desired.

As Shake says, 7 playoff games is plenty of evidence. I hope this changes this year and i think it might but so far how
can any of us have faith in Marv coaching us to a Playoff win? I can only hope the players become coaches themselves
for this to happen and with Dalton and Burfict this could happen. If it was all on Marvin Lewis i would have no faith.

[JumboTron]

Not enough talent to win championships? Highly debatable. Not enough quality coaching to win a single playoff game in 13 seasons? Fact.

[J24]

My biggest problem with Marvin is that you in "big time" games we go away from our identity and play to passive. Seriously we throw the ball to much in big games and that's why we lose.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-07-2016, 12:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Many Bronco fans said the same thing about Elway winning a Super Bowl.

You simply can not say "case closed".  

The striking similarities and numbers speak for themselves.....except that Mora would at least call out his team for a piss poor performance and rake them over the coals.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-07-2016, 01:35 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Thanks for answering Fred. Long, drawn out post that alludes to some weaknesses yet pretty much excuses them all.

Kind of what i expected and maybe there are a few fans that have a personal hatred for Marv cause of his personality
but that is not 90% or so of the people in this thread. It is his coaching that stands out or the lack there of. His half time
adjustments have been poor in big games. We were leading 10-7 against the Chargers in a Playoff game and we don't
score a single point in the 2nd half. Bad halftime adjustment.

This year against the Steelers and Broncos our two losses were bad halftime adjustments as well. The refs sure didn't
help against the Steelers but we should expect that by now.

Marvin puts together damn good teams and works well with players but his coaching leaves much to be desired.

As Shake says, 7 playoff games is plenty of evidence. I hope this changes this year and i think it might but so far how
can any of us have faith in Marv coaching us to a Playoff win? I can only hope the players become coaches themselves
for this to happen and with Dalton and Burfict this could happen. If it was all on Marvin Lewis i would have no faith.

Yeah, I mean, if we went by personality and community outreach, Marvin would be one of the GOATs.  I really like the dude, but I'm tired of the mediocrity, flat performances, not looking prepared, and meltdowns.

[fredtoast]

(10-07-2016, 01:51 PM)Wyche Wrote: The striking similarities and numbers speak for themselves.....except that Mora would at least call out his team for a piss poor performance and rake them over the coals.

So?

 You just sound like the Bronco fans who "guaranteed" Elway would never win a Super Bowl.  They claimed they had a "mountain of evidence" to prove he would not. 14 seasons.  0-3 with all 3 losses being blowouts.  It was "impossible" for Elway to win a Super Bowl.

[JumboTron]

(10-07-2016, 01:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So?

 You just sound like the Bronco fans who "guaranteed" Elway would never win a Super Bowl.  They claimed they had a "mountain of evidence" to prove he would not. 14 seasons.  0-3 with all 3 losses being blowouts.  It was "impossible" for Elway to win a Super Bowl.

So Marvin's "Super Bowl" is him winning one solitary playoff game.  Depressing.  I would kill to be a fan of a team dogging their QB for never winning a SB even though he had been there multiple times prior as opposed to being an ardent fan of a team whose head coach can't even win one postseason contest.  

[Bengalholic]

To put Marvin's playoff record in perspective:

67 Head Coaches in NFL history have coached 10 or more seasons. Of those 67, only 5 have never won a single playoff game: Marvin (0-7), Mora (0-6), Dick Jauron (0-1) and Joe Kuharich/Norm Van Brocklin...who never made the postseason. 55 of the coaches on this list have won at least 2 playoff games.

24 coaches in NFL history have lost 7 or more playoff games. Of those 24, 19 also have 7 or more playoff wins. Of the coaches on this list, Marvin is the only one without at least 2 playoff wins.

[JumboTron]

(10-07-2016, 02:05 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: To put Marvin's playoff record in perspective:

67 Head Coaches in NFL history have coached 10 or more seasons. Of those 67, only 5 have never won a single playoff game: Marvin (0-7), Mora (0-6), Dick Jauron (0-1) and Joe Kuharich/Norm Van Brocklin...who never made the postseason. 55 of the coaches on this list have won at least 2 playoff games.

24 coaches in NFL history have lost 7 or more playoff games. Of those 24, 19 also have 7 or more playoff wins. Of the coaches on this list, Marvin is the only one without at least 2 playoff wins.

Good God...someone please pass the Prozac because these stats are enough to drive a Bengals fan to go buy some rope, a step-ladder and find a sturdy ceiling beam.

[fredtoast]

(10-07-2016, 01:35 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote:  It is his coaching that stands out or the lack there of. His half time adjustments have been poor in big games. We were leading 10-7 against the Chargers in a Playoff game and we don't score a single point in the 2nd half. Bad halftime adjustment.

This year against the Steelers and Broncos our two losses were bad halftime adjustments as well. The refs sure didn't help against the Steelers but we should expect that by now.

Over the last 5 years only three teams have more come-from-behind wins than the Bengals.

Over the last 5 years the Bengals have finished in the top 11 in third quarter points scored every year except '12. ('11-11th, '13-7th, '14-11, '15-10th).  

And our loss to the Broncos looked to be more because of DBs getting beaten than any big problem with the scheme.



Why is no one addressing the fact that even good coaches have losing seasons?  if good coaching controls everything and talent does not matter why do some coaches that have gone to Super Bowls also have losing seasons?

[fredtoast]

(10-07-2016, 02:03 PM)JumboTron Wrote: So Marvin's "Super Bowl" is him winning one solitary playoff game.  Depressing.  I would kill to be a fan of a team dogging their QB for never winning a SB even though he had been there multiple times prior as opposed to being an ardent fan of a team whose head coach can't even win one postseason contest.  

Nice red herring.  Too bad it has nothing to do with the discussion we are having.

If past performance is 100% proof then how was Elway ever able to win a Super Bowl?

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-07-2016, 12:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: From what I can see it is not just one single thing.  Personally I don't think that coaching in the postseason is that much different than coaching in the regular season.  Pretty much the best regular season coaches are also the best post season coaches.  Marvin is an anomaly.  If there really was some super secret to being a better post season coach than regular season coach then I think we would see a lot more examples of coaches like Marvin who have strikingly different records in the post season than in the regular season.  

Most of his career Marvin has not had the talent to win championships.  His '05 team had an elite offense but did not have the defense to win a championship.  

'05 team was destroyed by injury and suspension in just two seasons.  By '08 ..... Braham-gone, Pollack-gone, Thurman-gone, Henry-gone, Deltha Oneal-gone, Rudi-gone, Levi Jones-never returned to pre-injury level,  Willie Anderson-never returned to pre-injury form.  Plus they lost Justin Smith and Eric Steinbach to free-agency.

'09 team was smoke an mirrors.  Marvin did a great job getting 10 wins out of a team with so little talent, but when Chris Henry was lost to injury our entire passing game collapsed and the offense crashed.  But Marvin brought back the unbalanced line (mainly because 3 of his starters were undrafted free agents with just 6 total NFL starts), and got some decent production form cheap cast offs (Benson, Dhani Jones, Tank Johnson).  Plus Mike Zimmer arrived and fixed our defense.  Marvin was hired as a defensive guru, but he never had a good defense until Zimmer arrived.  However by the end of the year that team was running on fumes.  Over their last 5 games they were 1-4 and outscored 65-118.  They were 2.5 point favorites in the playoff game, but that team really didn't have the talent to win a playoff game against a team that both the #1 defense in the league and the #1 rushing game.

'10 was a dumpster fire.  Because of all the drama and magic surrounding the '09 team (multiple come-from-behind last minute wins, the Vicki Zimmer game, the Chris Henry game) many people did not realize how deeply flawed they were.  TO was seen as the missing piece for a Super Bowl contender.  Then the wheels fell off.  I really can not argue with anyone who called for Marvin to be fired after the '10 season.  At that point he had had 8 years and he did not look close to winning a championship.

However, even though many experts claimed we wopuld be the worst team in the league in '11 Marvin made the playoffs with a rookie starting QB.  But the Bengals were 4 point underdogs on the road in both the '11 and '12 playoffs.

'13 was the first time that the Bengals were favored to win a playoff game and they laid a big egg at home.  I was there and as disgusted as everyone else, but at that point the Bengals were winning against good teams during the regular season.  I really felt that we had what it took to beat good teams in the playoffs.  

'14 team was destroyed by injury.

'15 team was missing starting QB but lost in a melt down.

Marvin is obviously not an elite NFL, coach but he does not deserve much of the criticism he gets around here for certain issues.  He struggles a bit with clock management, but that has never cost us a game.  He is criticized for not "making adjustments", but the numbers show that his teams do well in the third quarter and come form behind to win more than most other teams.  He gets criticized for being too conservative with a lead, but again the numbers show that he is about league average when it comes to running the ball with a lead int he second half.  In fact one loss I blame on coaching was against Tampa Bay in '10 when the Bengals threw the ball when they should not have.  He gets criticized for using time out  early but I see other teams do that all the time.  

But the criticism for his sideline demeanor and press conferences is just ridiculous.  In fact it proves my point that many people here have a personal hatred for Marvin more because of his personality than how he coaches.  Personally I don't care about a coaches demeanor as long as he is not embarrassing the team.  Screaming and yelling is not as effective as many people here think.  It might work with high school kids, but you don't win at the NFL based on your ability to scream.

So I think Marvin does not have one big weakness.  Instead it is a lot of little things.  

Finally I think too many people around here give coaching all the blame and credit for everything, but in fact, except for a couple of rare exceptions pretty much every coach has an up and down career that include winning seasons and losing seasons.  Marvin has not had "the most talented roster in the league" like some people claim.  The players who vote for the top 100 players do not agree.  the fans who vote for the pro Bowl do not agree.  The media members who pick the All-pro teams do not agree.  In fact the only people making that claim are usually trying to make up a reason to blame Marvin.

It might be a very simplistic answer, but my belief has always been that Marv's approach has always been the issue. There are obviously different kinds of coaches and the way they approach, teach and react to things. Fiery coaches, quiet coaches and all coaches somewhere in between. Marv is  smart guy and i believe he's a good coach when it comes to schemes and Xs and Os. But his personality has always been lukewarm, from an outsiders perspective. 

Being a fiery guy doesn't guarantee you're going to win big games. If you have the right personnel, not necessarily elite talent, i think you can win big with this type of coach based on his attitude towards in-game decisions and how he inspires his players in practice and games. 

Being a quiet, or somewhere in the middle coach, doesn't guarantee you're not going to win big games. I do believe these types of coaches need elite players in key positions to win big though. 

Marv has has some very good to elite players throughout his coaching career and he's been hamstrung with bad luck (injuries, bounce of a ball) along the way. He's also had the players in place to at least win a playoff game once or twice. 

I know you will talk about his record of going for it on 4th down, but on the big picture, i don't think he takes chances on near the level some other successful coaches have, when the decision could effect the outcome of a game, late. 

When you combine his overall 'by the book', conservative coaching style with his mostly laid back demeanor, i think you have a team that resembles him. Good in the beginning and middle, but not as good at the end, when it matters. That goes for in-game and season; start off strong, get a lead, try to hold on for the win. 

You can't deny the success he's had, but you can't call him a great coach because he routinely comes up short in primetime and playoff games. IMO, it's all due to his approach, how he acts and how he coaches in-game. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-07-2016, 01:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Lack of talent is not an "excuse".  It is a reason.  Marvin has lost 2 playoff games that he was favored to win, and I say the '09 team should not have been favored.  Two games is not a "mountain of evidence".

If good coaching always trumps talent then why do most of the same coaches that win Super Bowls also have losing seasons?  Jeff Fisher went to a Super Bowl but it would be crazy to claim he is a better coach than Marvin right now.

As far as his "prime time record" what most people here seem to be saying is that prime time games really don't make a difference and it is actually about losing to good teams.  Over the last 3 years the Bengals have been one of the best teams in the league against other teams with winning records.  What Marvin is accomplishing is very hard.  Very few coaches have matched him.

Are there a few NFL coaches I thinkar better than Marvin?  Absolutely.  Are any of them available to come here and replace Marvin?  No.

I can see rolling the dice with an unknown if we were floundering, but we are too close to take that chance. 

Using favorite or underdog is an excuse. Underdogs do and have won games. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-07-2016, 01:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So?

 You just sound like the Bronco fans who "guaranteed" Elway would never win a Super Bowl.  They claimed they had a "mountain of evidence" to prove he would not. 14 seasons.  0-3 with all 3 losses being blowouts.  It was "impossible" for Elway to win a Super Bowl.

And up until they finally won, it was true. Hindsight is the winner in this argument. 

Until Marv does it, it's true.

[fredtoast]

(10-07-2016, 02:30 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Using favorite or underdog is an excuse. Underdogs do and have won games. 

If talent does not matter then why do good coaches have bad seasons?  Why don't the good coaches win every year?

It is not an excuse.  It is a fact.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-07-2016, 01:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So?

 You just sound like the Bronco fans who "guaranteed" Elway would never win a Super Bowl.  They claimed they had a "mountain of evidence" to prove he would not. 14 seasons.  0-3 with all 3 losses being blowouts.  It was "impossible" for Elway to win a Super Bowl.

Elway won a playoff game or two......including a miraculous come from behind deal in Northern Ohio you may recall.  That was one player.....and Dan Reeves never did win one....although he too won some playoff games, so we can't compare him to Mediocre Marv.  Marv has had different rosters and still fell short.  The losing is bad enough, it those meltdowns and looking totally unprepared at times that really look like coaching issues.

(10-07-2016, 02:03 PM)JumboTron Wrote: So Marvin's "Super Bowl" is him winning one solitary playoff game.  Depressing.  I would kill to be a fan of a team dogging their QB for never winning a SB even though he had been there multiple times prior as opposed to being an ardent fan of a team whose head coach can't even win one postseason contest.  

This.

[fredtoast]

(10-07-2016, 02:33 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: And up until they finally won, it was true. 

You fail at logic.

The only thing it was true about was what had already happened. It was wrong when predicting the future. 

If Marvin wins a Super Bowl you will not be able to claim you were right when you guaranteed that he could not.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-07-2016, 02:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If talent does not matter then why do good coaches have bad seasons?  Why don't the good coaches win every year?

It is not an excuse.  It is a fact.

It can't logically be a fact because underdogs have won. 

It's equally as hard to argue that Marv hasn't been a good coach during the regular season in afternoon games, as it is to argue that Marv has been a good coach in primetime and playoff games.