Dalton playing better than last year.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-25-2016, 02:24 PM)NKYRob Wrote: Plenty of people recognize the value these guys bring to their teams.  There's still a good chunk of people in this market who honestly believe we'd be playing better with AJ McCarron at QB.  

You just quoted one.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-25-2016, 12:14 PM)Atomic Orange Wrote: I believe Dalton and Luck are neck and neck stats wise so to say one is overrated is kinds silly and i'm no Luck fan. I mean last i looked he doesn't have much to work with either.

Agree that neither is working with much,  but I think the point is public perception. Andy is still viewed as a joke, while Luck is still highly respected. I'd say that if you bring up a Luck vs Dalton debate anywhere but here, 90% of casual fans around the league would laugh hysterically. Yet their performance is similar. I'd argue Dalton has surpassed him over the last couple years.

(10-25-2016, 12:24 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I'm not saying that I would take Luck over Dalton, but he has had significantly less to work with during his career.

Less? Maybe. Significantly less? No. Dalton has actually been sacked at a slightly higher rate. Both have had pretty awful run game to help them out. Andy's stud receiver is better than Andrew's stud WR. Both have had good, not great play at TE. Both have had a mixed bag at #2 WR. I'd say reality hasn't quite matched the media-driven public perception of how great Andy has had it or how bad Luck has had it. It's much closer than many think, IMO. Andy has had a significantly better defense for the most part, I'll give you that, although that has little bearing on their individual performance. I'd take Luck's coaches over the Andy's. 

[Bengalbug]

(10-25-2016, 02:55 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Agree that neither is working with much,  but I think the point is public perception. Andy is still viewed as a joke, while Luck is still highly respected. I'd say that if you bring up a Luck vs Dalton debate anywhere but here, 90% of casual fans around the league would laugh hysterically. Yet their performance is similar. I'd argue Dalton has surpassed him over the last couple years.


Less? Maybe. Significantly less? No. Dalton has actually been sacked at a slightly higher rate. Both have had pretty awful run game to help them out. Andy's stud receiver is better than Andrew's stud WR. Both have had good, not great play at TE. Both have had a mixed bag at #2 WR. I'd say reality hasn't quite matched the media-driven public perception of how great Andy has had it or how bad Luck has had it. It's much closer than many think, IMO. Andy has had a significantly better defense for the most part, I'll give you that, although that has little bearing on their individual performance. I'd take Luck's coaches over the Andy's. 

I'm not sure I'd take pagano over lewis in all honesty. 

Luck has also had the benefit of playing all home games out of the elements.  I think luck has more physical gifts but Andy is developing the leadership skills necessary to take over a team.  I also think Andy is smarter with the ball.  

Both are good, and 31/32 teams would likely take luck before Andy on name recognition and draft status alone, but I would take Andy personally.  I think Andy may be one of he most mentally tough football players I have seen in a long time.  He hasn't always played great and even regressed at time, but it looks like he is only getting better.  Maybe aj mccarron playing so well last year was finally some sort of competition Andy needed to elevate his game. 

Whatever the case may be, I like dalton, he is a great football player, teammate, husband, person.  

[OrlandoBengal]

(10-25-2016, 02:55 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Agree that neither is working with much,  but I think the point is public perception. Andy is still viewed as a joke, while Luck is still highly respected. I'd say that if you bring up a Luck vs Dalton debate anywhere but here, 90% of casual fans around the league would laugh hysterically. Yet their performance is similar. I'd argue Dalton has surpassed him over the last couple years.


Less? Maybe. Significantly less? No. Dalton has actually been sacked at a slightly higher rate. Both have had pretty awful run game to help them out. Andy's stud receiver is better than Andrew's stud WR. Both have had good, not great play at TE. Both have had a mixed bag at #2 WR. I'd say reality hasn't quite matched the media-driven public perception of how great Andy has had it or how bad Luck has had it. It's much closer than many think, IMO. Andy has had a significantly better defense for the most part, I'll give you that, although that has little bearing on their individual performance. I'd take Luck's coaches over the Andy's. 

I look at the line play before this year and think Andy has had the advantage.  I think the Cincinnati receiving corps is overall much better than Indy during their careers, and don't think Hilton is even in the same conversation as Green.  Tight end play similar and neither has had a great running game.  Luck had Arians for one year, but then had Pep Hamilton, so overall I would take Gruden and Hue.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-25-2016, 03:02 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: I'm not sure I'd take pagano over lewis in all honesty. 

Luck has also had the benefit of playing all home games out of the elements.  I think luck has more physical gifts but Andy is developing the leadership skills necessary to take over a team.  I also think Andy is smarter with the ball.  

Both are good, and 31/32 teams would likely take luck before Andy on name recognition and draft status alone, but I would take Andy personally.  I think Andy may be one of he most mentally tough football players I have seen in a long time.  He hasn't always played great and even regressed at time, but it looks like he is only getting better.  Maybe aj mccarron playing so well last year was finally some sort of competition Andy needed to elevate his game. 

Whatever the case may be, I like dalton, he is a great football player, teammate, husband, person.  

Pagano has been HC for 3 years and has won a playoff game in 2 different years and made an AFC title game. I would take that over the HC who is 0 for I-lost-count in the playoffs.

Agree with the rest. Luck is more talented physically, but more prone to turnovers and not as bright as Dalton mentally. Dalton's pre-snap ability is elite. From checking into better plays, to knowing when to hard count (he lured the Dolphins into 3 false start penalties for example). 

In the end, I think we'll look back at Dalton as a Drew Brees-lite. A high 2nd round pick who made up for a lack of physical gifts with accuracy, intelligence and command of his offense. Luck will have a career like Palmer's. A 1st overall pick with tons of hype who flashed greatness, but also inconsistency through his career.

[Bengalbug]

(10-25-2016, 03:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Pagano has been HC for 3 years and has won a playoff game in 2 different years and made an AFC title game. I would take that over the HC who is 0 for I-lost-count in the playoffs.

Agree with the rest. Luck is more talented physically, but more prone to turnovers and not as bright as Dalton mentally. Dalton's pre-snap ability is elite. From checking into better plays, to knowing when to hard count (he lured the Dolphins into 3 false start penalties for example). 

In the end, I think we'll look back at Dalton as a Drew Brees-lite. A high 2nd round pick who made up for a lack of physical gifts with accuracy, intelligence and command of his offense. Luck will have a career like Palmer's. A 1st overall pick with tons of hype who flashed greatness, but also inconsistency through his career.

Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Arians lead the colts to AFCCG while pagano was getting treatment?

That would be like giving Marvin credit had he been out and Zimmer lead Bengals to AFCCg

[Shake n Blake]

(10-25-2016, 03:10 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I look at the line play before this year and think Andy has had the advantage.  I think the Cincinnati receiving corps is overall much better than Indy during their careers, and don't think Hilton is even in the same conversation as Green.  Tight end play similar and neither has had a great running game.  Luck had Arians for one year, but then had Pep Hamilton, so overall I would take Gruden and Hue.

They are being sacked at a similar rate this year, and like I said, Dalton has a slightly higher sack rate. So that means it's been similar through their careers, not just this year. Maybe Luck's line has been worse, but I don't know how anyone can argue a "significant" difference when the sack rates are nearly identical. Maybe perception has been wrong?

Say what you will about Hilton, but he's still a stud and a fine #1. You seem to agree on everything else, player-wise, so where's the big difference? 

Arians is Arians and Pep Hamilton is always thrown around as a HC candidate for a reason. So I'd say the coordinators have been at least equal. Pagano > Marv IMO. At least he's put his guys in a position to succeed in the playoffs.

[OrlandoBengal]

(10-25-2016, 03:24 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: They are being sacked at a similar rate this year, and like I said, Dalton has a slightly higher sack rate. So that means it's been similar through their careers, not just this year. Maybe Luck's line has been worse, but I don't know how anyone can argue a "significant" difference when the sack rates are nearly identical. Maybe perception has been wrong?

Say what you will about Hilton, but he's still a stud and a fine #1. You seem to agree on everything else, player-wise, so where's the big difference? 

Arians is Arians and Pep Hamilton is always thrown around as a HC candidate for a reason. So I'd say the coordinators have been at least equal. Pagano > Marv IMO. At least he's put his guys in a position to succeed in the playoffs.

Maybe my perception has been wrong.  I will readily admit that I only see a couple of their games a year, but have always heard the narrative that their line is trash.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-25-2016, 03:19 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Arians lead the colts to AFCCG while pagano was getting treatment?

That would be like giving Marvin credit had he been out and Zimmer lead Bengals to AFCCg

Ok, you're wrong. 

Arians was year 1. They made the AFC title game in Luck's 3rd year. 

[Shake n Blake]

(10-25-2016, 03:28 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Maybe my perception has been wrong.  I will readily admit that I only see a couple of their games a year, but have always heard the narrative that their line is trash.

Same here. I posed that as a question because I can't say for sure. I know Luck has a reputation for holding the ball too long, and when you consider that, the sack numbers, and the perception of Andy's line, it leads me to believe maybe Luck's line isn't as bad as everyone says. Keep in mind that Andy has that quick release time through his career, so that's helped his sack numbers. While Luck is pretty much the opposite.

[OrlandoBengal]

(10-25-2016, 03:34 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Same here. I posed that as a question because I can't say for sure. I know Luck has a reputation for holding the ball too long, and when you consider that, the sack numbers, and the perception of Andy's line, it leads me to believe maybe Luck's line isn't as bad as everyone says. Keep in mind that Andy has that quick release time through his career, so that's helped his sack numbers.

That was my thought as well.  If Andy is being sacked at the same rate, and has a much quicker release, what does that say about our line??

[Bengalbug]

(10-25-2016, 03:28 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Ok, you're wrong. 

Arians was year 1. They made the AFC title game in Luck's 3rd year. 

Oh yes j am haha.  Guess that 45-7 drumming by the pats didn't stick in my head

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-25-2016, 03:35 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: That was my thought as well.  If Andy is being sacked at the same rate, and has a much quicker release, what does that say about our line??

What a few of us "Dalton Lovers" / "PA Bashers" have said for a few years.....

[Shake n Blake]

(10-25-2016, 03:41 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Oh yes j am haha.  Guess that 45-7 drumming by the pats didn't stick in my head

I only wish the Bengals could get hammered by the Patsies in the AFC title game. I guess we'll all have to settle for getting destroyed by them in regular season.

[Hammerthis]

(10-25-2016, 10:09 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Reality speak is not taken kindly here sir!

I see! This place definitely fits the definition of an echo chamber. I'm 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-25-2016, 03:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I only wish the Bengals could get hammered by the Patsies in the AFC title game. I guess we'll all have to settle for getting destroyed by them in regular season.

....and by God, we're good at it too!

[Hammerthis]

(10-25-2016, 02:17 PM)Fresno B Wrote: Why is there a need to point out Dalton's performance every week? I don't see this with Brady and Big Ben or other "elite" quarterbacks.

Not hating, but ask yourself this. How many NFL analyst or HC's have stated or implied that Andy is a difference maker when the game is on the line or in big games period? They often imply that about Big Ben and others, but never Andy. 
So to answer your question, IMO some people on this board want to fill that void for our QB. They point out stats that are relevant at the signing of new contract. But for season ticket holders we really don't give hoot unless his stats are consistently accumulating in the game when it counts the most. 

[Fresno B]

(10-25-2016, 04:47 PM)Hammerthis Wrote: Not hating, but ask yourself this. How many NFL analyst or HC's have stated or implied that Andy is a difference maker when the game is on the line or in big games period? They often imply that about Big Ben and others, but never Andy. 
So to answer your question, IMO some people on this board want to fill that void for our QB. They point out stats that are relevant at the signing of new contract. But for season ticket holders we really don't give hoot unless his stats are consistently accumulating in the game when it counts the most. 

Exactly. If Dalton were as great as their proclaiming, there wouldn't be the need every week to point out his stats. They would speak for themselves. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-25-2016, 09:31 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No Eifert this year.

Sacked twice as many times as last year.

Still putting up numbers as good as last year.

I am just as impressed with him this season as I was last year when people were calling him one of the best one the league.  Only difference is that we started last year 8-0.

I agree with you here Fred, Dalton has played great considering...

Well, everything you say here.

Hopefully we can help him out next year with a better OL coach. Ha.

[*Go Cards*]

(10-25-2016, 09:53 AM)bengals73 Wrote: Andy has been a bad ass this year.. That is one spot I'm not worried about that and 1st string WR

Not worried about his skills one bit.

BUT scared to death the o-line is going to get him killed