Building Through the Draft - Defense

[NKYRob]

I thought it would be interesting to take a look at the past few drafts and see what contribution we are getting from the players drafted on the defensive side of the ball. Below is a list of players that have been drafted since 2009 that remain on this roster/practice squad:

Rey Maualuga (2009 - Round 2)
Michael Johnson (2009 - Round 3)

Carlos Dunlap (2010 - Round 2)
Geno Atkins (2010 - Round 4)
Vincent Rey (2010 - UFA)

Dre Kirkpatrick (2012 - Round 1)
Brandon Thompson (2012 - Round 3)
George Iloka (2012 - Round 5)
Vontaze Burfict (2012 - UFA)

Margus Hunt (2013 - Round 2)
Shawn Williams (2013 - Round 3)

Darqueze Dennard (2014 - Round 1)
Will Clarke (2014 - Round 3)
Marquis Flowers (2014 - Round 6)

PJ Dawson (2015 - Round 3)
Josh Shaw (2015 - Round 4)
Marcus Hardison (2015 - Round 4)
Derron Smith (2015 - Round 6)
DeShawn Williams (2015 - UFA)

William Jackson (2016 - Round 1)
Nick Vigil (2016 - Round 3)
Andrew Billings (2016 - Round 4)
Clayton Fejedelem (2016 - Round 7)

Following is a list of defensive players drafted since 2009 in the top 5 rounds that are no longer with the team. I chose the top 5 rounds just given the limited expectations for those in the 6th and 7th rounds of even making the roster:

Brandon Ghee (2010 - CB), Roddrick Muckelroy (2010 - LB), Dontay Moch (2011 - DE/LB), Robert Sands (2011 - DB), Devon Still (2012 - DT), Shaun Prater (2012 - DB), Sean Porter (2013 - LB)

You guys know the drill. If you don't use free agency you have to draft players, develop them into starters, rinse, and repeat. So, let's review how we've done on the defensive side of the ball.

For the 2009 class, it's hard to argue with the production we've gotten out of Maualuga and Michael Johnson. Up until this year, Maualuga has been a proven run stuffer in the middle. Again, up until this year, Michael Johnson had been a solid DE. He was good at setting the edge against the run and has had some good years getting at the QB and batting down passes.

From the 2010 class you've got our two most reliable pass rushers in Geno Atkins and Carlos Dunlap. The Bengals also grabbed Vinnie Rey as an UFA who's proven to be a nice depth piece at the LB position. You also had a couple swings and misses that year on Ghee and Muckelroy.

2011 was a year to forget from the defensive draft picks as the Bengals grabbed Moch and Sands in the top 5 rounds.

2012 was an interesting year as we grabbed Dre in the first round, who as of this year is our most reliable boundary corner (say what you want about this opinion, Adam Jones is not having a good year). Maybe not what you expected out of a first round corner, but he is at worst serviceable. Brandon Thompson remains as a depth DT, though he hasn't shown to be more than that in his time with the team. Iloka remains as a starting safety, although his play this year does not resemble the impact player we saw on the field the past two seasons. Burfict has been an enforcer at LB, although, he has proven a liability in coverage, especially this year. Our second round draft pick that year was Still, who didn't show much on the field, even when healthy and given the chance.

We are just now starting to see a return on investment from our 2013 draft picks. Hunt had done absolutely nothing up until this season, and still remains as nothing more than a depth piece at DE. Williams has been pressed into starting duties opposite Iloka, though he has been the primary suspect for several missed assignments, missed tackles, and dropped interceptions this season.

2014 is another class where we haven't seen much return on investment. Dennard has now been relegated to the 4th corner spot. In the only game this season where he played significant snaps (@ Pitt) he was repeatedly beat on deep passes. Will Clarke has shown some pass rush ability this season after doing nothing up to this point, but remains and unknown as a backup DE. Flowers has been a good special teams contributor.

The jury remains out on the 2015 class, but to this point we have our nickel corner (Shaw), what appears to be a solid backup safety (Smith), two unknowns at backup DT (Williams and Hardison), and our highest defensive draft pick from this class who is on the PS. I'll refrain from reviewing the 2016 draft class as it is impossible to speculate on what we have and what they may develop into.

So, what's the point of all of this? We have undoubtedly seen some poor play on the defensive side of the ball. We've been force fed this narrative that the Bengals have been incredible at drafting and have had one of the deepest and most talented rosters in the league (hence why guys don't see the field for the first 1-2 years after being drafted). At least for the defensive side of the ball that does not appear to be true. We have a lot of aging veterans on this defense whose play is on the decline (Maualuga, Johnson, and although not drafted by them - Dansby and Jones), several young draft picks whose play is lackluster (Williams, Dennard), and a lack of quality/proven depth behind them to take some snaps from them. I'm not sure if this is a matter of poor drafting or poor development. On that note, excuse me for not buying into the above mentioned narrative.

[BleedNOrange]

Nice post. I said something very similar in another post. We have some aging veterans with very little behind them. We had very good drafts for defense from 2009 - 2012 but have had almost nothing since then. People want to brag about how good we have been in the draft but we really haven't been recently. We need Williams and Billings to change that.

I can already hear people saying that we haven't got much production from the young guys because the older guys are so good. There are guys in this defense that were good but are declining quickly. Yet, the young guys still can't un-seat them. Is this more of being too loyal to vets or the youngs guys just aren't that good?

[NKYRob]

(10-31-2016, 10:51 AM)BleedNOrange Wrote: Nice post.  I said something very similar in another post.  We have some aging veterans with very little behind them.  We had very good drafts for defense from 2009 - 2012 but have had almost nothing since then.  People want to brag about how good we have been in the draft but we really haven't been recently.  We need Williams and Billings to change that.

I can already hear people saying that we haven't got much production from the young guys because the older guys are so good.  There are guys in this defense that were good but are declining quickly.  Yet, the young guys still can't un-seat them.  Is this more of being too loyal to vets or the youngs guys just aren't that good?

It's impossible to know since we don't really see them on the field.  Coaches certainly have a greater comfort level with the vets since they know the system and the assignments and have the experience.  Unfortunately for the young guys, they seem to get caught in a negative feedback loop that goes like this:

I can't get on the field because I don't have experience.
I don't have experience because I can't get on the field.  

[lone bengal]

Very good post looks like we've missed on the last few drafts on defense side of the ball outside of Josh Shaw. The DE position needs to be addressed next year, outside of Dunlap we get no pass rush on the outside. We need to find replacements for Michael Johnson and Peko. Hunt and Clarke are not the answer at DE. Hopefully Billings and Hardison can produce next season we will probably have to go through some growing pains with them based on their limited playing experience. Best case for the linebackers is that the Virgil pick pans out and we have two good young linebackers in Burfict and Virgil. Really thought that Dawson would be a productive player however it's not looking good for him. Best case for the secondary is that Shaw continues to play well and that William Jackson comes in next season and plays like a first round pick we can't afford to miss on him and Dennard.

[bengals67]

However you want to cut it, our D line is significantly below average this year.

Cannot rush passer with four giving QBs a picnic to pick apart our soft coverage

And getting killed on running plays.

I would like to know the real reason why our DL coach last season left the team.

[sonofstat]

(10-31-2016, 11:06 AM)NKYRob Wrote: It's impossible to know since we don't really see them on the field.  Coaches certainly have a greater comfort level with the vets since they know the system and the assignments and have the experience.  Unfortunately for the young guys, they seem to get caught in a negative feedback loop that goes like this:

I can't get on the field because I don't have experience.
I don't have experience because I can't get on the field.  

This is the worrying thing for me about the recent defensive draftees...in some cases we're talking about guys who are 3-4 years in.

Do we really know that Hunt is going to develop and become a starter?  Is Dennard ever going to be a quality replacement for Jones or DreK?  Dawson...i guess we're assuming he's probably never going to make it?  

On one hand i want to have faith that the coaches/front office have drafted well and obviously know more than us ...on the other hand you look at the guys who are now finally getting extended play and they are not performing at the same level as their predecessors.

I'd like to think it will happen but then i think about someone like Tyler Eifert or Gio Bernard who right away  looked like they belonged on an NFL field and were making an impact.  If we are waiting this long for the defensive draftees to do the same then maybe its just not there to being with.

[THE PISTONS]

The Bengals are living off of what they did during the 2009 and 2010 and 2011 drafts.

[lostpoet2]

First off, great thread! Here is my breakdown by type of player from a GM standpoint.  The problem, in my opinion, is that there are too many guys in sections 3-4 of my list and just as many in sections 5-6 as 1-2.  

1. Definitely keep long term and build around
Atkins
Dunlap
Iloka
Shaw

2. Probably should keep long term
Kirkpatrick
Burfict

3. Depth/Rotational Players with limitations
V. Rey
Clarke
Hunt
Shawn Williams
Lewis-Harris
Sims
Thompson

4. Jury is still out
D. Smith (I’m optimistic)
Hardison (I’m optimistic)
DeShawn Williams
Flowers
Dawson (I’m pessimistic)
2016 draftees (hopefully Jackson, Billings, and Vigil become long term starters)

5. Serviceable but on the decline
Jones
Dansby

6. Need to cut bait
Peko
Maualuga
Dennard

Other general comments:

• I wish there were more guys like Shaw, who while not a superstar, is a really solid young player
• We shouldn’t have 4 starters from groups 5-6.
• There are too many guys in the unknown category because we don’t mix them in enough in sub packages.  For example, why Derron Smith can’t play in a big nickel or replace Williams in dime packages is beyond me.  I would also assume even if Vigil isn't a top-two linebacker who plays in the majority of 4-2-5 nickel snaps, he could get live reps in base 4-3, 3-3-5, or 3-2-6 packages.
• The DE position is thin despite recently investing fairly high picks in Hunt and Clarke. This has been beat to death though.  
• In our scheme you really need two linebackers who play 3 downs and can run down and clean up anything from sideline to sideline (think Carolina in 2014-2015).  A slimmed down Burfict could qualify if you paired him with a super rangey guy, but that's it unless Vigil or Dawson pan out.  We should primarily have this type of linebacker, but it has never been a priority.
  

[samhain]

Well, this team is starting to teeter close to not having to worry about making the postseason. That sucks. However, one benefit of being in that scenario is that you get a chance to see what you have in your young players late in the year in meaningless football games. I'd really like to see what they have in guys like Derron Smith, Maquis Flowers, Nick Vigil, and Paul Dawson before the draft starts. Any way they slice it, the d-line will need help from the draft and FA when the season is over.

[*psychdoctor*]

I think the OP should consider the coaching changes over the years and how it has affected player development and performance. The loss of Zimmer has proven to be huge. Paulie simply is not getting the same level of play and consistency out of the players. Through in the assistant coaching changes and their impact has been underwhelming at best.

I think DE is an issue as well as finding Peko's replacement. I hope Billings proves to be as good as I and Nate (and others) hoped. But his preseason before injury was not too impressive. I continue to be concerned about the linebacker play. They need a new young stud at SAM. I hope they get WJ3 back before December.

[3wt]

Probably shouldn't be posting as I'm really ticked off at this team, so I'm going to make some probably irrational statements.

But I'm upset with the play of Jones.    He has played too soft and has done pretty much nothing in press, plus his tackling - like most of the defense - has been below par.

Everyone is down on Dennard, but he did well when covering the outside as CB.  He has been weak in the slot, but has really not had a lot of consecutive snaps.   If the season proceeds down the drain I'd pull Jones and let Dennard get the snaps he needs to get up to speed.  His tackling has been pretty good.  The ST gaff was so frustrating but it was really bad luck on his part.  He was looking at the ball at the precise moment that the returner motioned for the fair catch.

I'm furious with our linebackers.   Maualuga and Burfict look like butter balls.  They're slow and playing more undisciplined than they used to, though the holding call on Burfict appeared to be the result of Iloka not fulfilling his responsibility.  And I know everyone loves the Vigil kid, but despite his pretty good coverage the guy can't tackle.  He whiffs and seems scared to put a shoulder into anyone.  I hope I'm wrong but I think he'll be a whiff.   And Flowers seems athletic enough but doesn't seem very smart.  And again, if the season proceeds towards the drain I'd like to see what Dawson could do with some sustained snaps in replacement for one of the two butter balls and/ or the old man at strong side LB.   Without really knowing what goes on behind closed doors my impression is that Marvin cuts his nose to spite a poor practice player who has a history of producing on the field.  Get his butt on the field and see what he can do.  And none of this we'll try you for a play and pull you out crap.

The safeties are a mess.  It's one mess up after another, and I'm starting to believe that Iloka is as much to blame as Williams.   He wasn't perfect but letting Nelson go was a mistake.

Johnson and Peko look done to me.  Great guys, but they get shoved and redirected all over the field.  Peko makes an occasional great play, but most of the time his plays are 4 yards down field.

Bodine is looking better, but is always good for a total whiff in the run game and getting shoved back into the QBs lap.   I didn't see him shoved this game, but he totally whiffed on a running play that should have gone for some good yardage, but was totally stuffed with him standing there looking at I don't know what.

Andy picked the worst day to return to his less than excellent ways.  I realize he was pressured but he made bad decisions and took sacks where he should have gotten rid of the ball much sooner.  And he was not as accurate as he has been missing several critical throws.

It seems like we have enough talent to get it done on offense - where we expected to have the most difficulties.  Dalton has been really good for the most part, AJ Green is arguably the best receiver in the league - I truly feel he is after just destroying Norman yesterday.  And Eifert is unstoppable unless you get away with targeting the way the Steelers do.

The defense, however, seems to have a disturbing dearth of talent after years of revered drafting.  And it infuriates me to read on Bengals.com that they stood tall - at any point - when we gave up nearly 500 yards passing.  Nor could they stop the run consistently.  They were just an embarrassment from top to bottom.  No one could rush, cover or tackle.

Ok, I've purged enough.

[Housh]

That list pretty much says we haven't drafted a consistently solid defensive starter since 2012. Burfict and Illoka are the last ones. But before that we were hitting on ALOT of draft picks on D. Can someone remind me when Mike Zimmer left, because this isn't just dumb luck. From what I remember Zimmer was VERY hands on in the draft selection and most of our great picks were his picks

[NKYRob]

(10-31-2016, 01:03 PM)Housh Wrote: That list pretty much says we haven't drafted a consistently solid defensive starter since 2012. Burfict and Illoka are the last ones. But before that we were hitting on ALOT of draft picks on D. Can someone remind me when Mike Zimmer left, because this isn't just dumb luck. From what I remember Zimmer was VERY hands on in the draft selection and most of our great picks were his picks

Zimmer took over the Vikings in 2014.  

[lostpoet2]

(10-31-2016, 01:03 PM)Housh Wrote: That list pretty much says we haven't drafted a consistently solid defensive starter since 2012. Burfict and Illoka are the last ones. But before that we were hitting on ALOT of draft picks on D. Can someone remind me when Mike Zimmer left, because this isn't just dumb luck. From what I remember Zimmer was VERY hands on in the draft selection and most of our great picks were his picks

Possibly, but Zimmer was on board for the 2013 defensive draft of Hunt, Williams, and Porter.  Hunt was clearly a project and Williams clearly couldn't cover.  Porter looked like a decent WILL prospect, but just had bad luck with injuries.

[Speedy Thomas]

(10-31-2016, 11:41 AM)bengals67 Wrote: However you want to cut it, our D line is significantly below average this year.

Cannot rush passer with four giving QBs a picnic to pick apart our soft coverage

And getting killed on running plays.

I would like to know the real reason why our DL coach last season left the team.

Me too.

[Goalpost]

Our drafts have been mediocre lately. We were in great shape a few years back, but have just not added any elite players. Some of that is because we are drafting lower. But some of that has been by choice. Drafting these cb's while neglecting other areas hasn't really worked out. Our Cb's have been slow to develop and the results are mixed. Burfict was a gamble that paid off. But honestly we haven't drafted an impact linebacker or d-lineman for awhile.

[*ochocincos*]

What I want to know is why is Dunlap at LDE and MJ at RDE when the RDE is supposed to be the more explosive pass rusher and the LDE is supposed to be much more the less pass rushing, more run stuffing compliment?

I get that back before Dunlap emerged and MJ got double digit sacks, it made sense that he was the better pass rusher and therefore belonged at LDE. However, it seems MJ has lost a step or two and Dunlap is the better fit on the other side. Plus, MJ has traditionally been a good run defender.

One would think both the run defense and pass defense would improve if the swap was made...right?

[THE PISTONS]

(10-31-2016, 01:30 PM)Goalpost Wrote: Our drafts have been mediocre lately.  We were in great shape a few years back, but have just not added any elite players.  Some of that is because we are drafting lower.  But some of that has been by choice.  Drafting these cb's while neglecting other areas hasn't really worked out.  Our Cb's have been slow to develop and the results are mixed.  Burfict was a gamble that paid off.  But honestly we haven't drafted an impact linebacker or d-lineman for awhile.

Agreed.

I think part of the issue is we're not playing these guys early either.

Would it be the end of the world if we gave Vigil 15 snaps a game on defense? For YEARS the Bengals haven't played rookies in many situations.

You need to play rookies for them to develop. Guys like Atkins, Dunlap, MJ, Dalton, Green, and Sanu ALL played early.