Credit to Paul Guenther

[fredtoast]

(11-10-2016, 01:50 AM)tlotharw Wrote: Guenther is coming up with ways to turn around an under-preforming defense after half the season is done.

Or is he suggesting a stupid move based on nothing but desperation?

If you give young players snaps when they have done nothing to earn them then they will have no motivation to work hard in practice.

The fact is that none of us have seen anything to suggest that the guys in the bench are better than the guys playing.  And if they are not better then the team will just get worse by playing them.

[BleedNOrange]

(11-09-2016, 10:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Green kills the Steelers.  they held him in check the first game this year (2 catches for 38 yards) but check out the last six games before that

5 rec...... 71 yds, 1 td
6 rec.....132 yds, 1 td
11 rec...118 yds, 1 td
8 rec...... 82 yds
11 rec....224 yds, 1 td
9 rec....... 93 yds

"Kills the Steelers"?  

In those 6 games that you reference, the Bengals are 1-5 (1-6 if you include the 38 yard game from this year).  Yeah, he has decent games but "kills" doesn't seem like the right word.

[Pat5775]

(11-10-2016, 10:17 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Ask Zimmer how that worked with Turner. Fact of the matter is he is the head coach, and he has that right to do this. I don't think it's a good look, but I respect it actually. My first two years of being a head coach for my pee-wee team, the biggest lesson learned was to run the team my way, and my way only. You let others do there thing and bad things usually start happening. 

You raise some good points. But so far, our defense has been abysmal. A shakeup, no matter how minor, couldn't hurt. Changes Paul sees that could benefit a struggling D should at least be considered by Marv. Anybody satisfied with our defensive play this year is delusional... Hopefully Marv knows what he's doing but I doubt it.

[fredtoast]

(11-10-2016, 11:26 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: A shakeup, no matter how minor, couldn't hurt

Yes it could.  That is the point that many people don't understand.

[Bengalboy]

Marvin didn't just step on his dick.

He ran up to him and pulled his pants down in front of the worlds press.

End of the day Marvin and Co. are accountable one way or another. a 1st round corner back not getting any real starting time in 3 seasons!

Its either incompetent coaching or bad scouting. All of which is on these clowns.And its not even the 1st time.

[masterpanthera_t]

(11-10-2016, 01:50 AM)tlotharw Wrote: Guenther is coming up with ways to turn around an under-preforming defense after half the season is done.

How accountable were Burfict, Jones, and Maualuga for celebrating a playoff win in the locker room with time on the clock?

How do you know that Guenther didn't hold them accountable over the offseason?  It's better to come up with ways now after half the season is done (not to mention no one knows whether he tried to do this before the halfway mark or not) than wait until next year, which apparently is what Marvin wants to do.  

It's also easy to pretend that you know as much as a coach does when you don't get to see the players in practice and also don't know what the coach is actually doing.  I get it, we're all frustrated with the defense, but to pretend like we have the answers when we don't know much of the inner workings of the team is not really going to solve anything.

[masterpanthera_t]

(11-10-2016, 10:22 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Or is he suggesting a stupid move based on nothing but desperation?

If you give young players snaps when they have done nothing to earn them then they will have no motivation to work hard in practice.

The fact is that none of us have seen anything to suggest that the guys in the bench are better than the guys playing.  And if they are not better then the team will just get worse by playing them.

Almost all of what you said is just generally well known.  Yes, playing bench players when they are not better than starters will not help over the long run.  If you give young players snaps when they have done nothing to earn them will not motivate them to work harder.  But that article does nothing to suggest that this is what Guenther is doing.  It suggests that if the veterans are not playing the way they are expected to play, they will not be given playing time automatically, in other words making them feel the pressure of their lack of performance.  And I would trust what Paul Guenther sees in practice over what "none of us has seen", since we don't actually get to "see" what happens in practice nor the day to day work inside the team.

[Pat5775]

(11-10-2016, 11:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes it could.  That is the point that many people don't understand.

A minor shakeup will likely hurt an already struggling defense. K, got it   God forbid they try something different 

[masterpanthera_t]

(11-09-2016, 10:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Green kills the Steelers.  they held him in check the first game this year (2 catches for 38 yards) but check out the last six games before that

5 rec...... 71 yds, 1 td
6 rec.....132 yds, 1 td
11 rec...118 yds, 1 td
8 rec...... 82 yds
11 rec....224 yds, 1 td
9 rec....... 93 yds

This is a fair point, and I am probably guilty of thinking that due to the Bengals' record against Pittsburgh, that A.J. Green was held in check.  He plays well against the Steelers and I stand corrected.  

Also, to say he "kills" the Steelers is probably an overstatement.

[masterpanthera_t]

(11-10-2016, 01:16 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: A minor shakeup will likely hurt an already struggling defense. K, got it   God forbid they try something different 

A shakeup can help or hurt depending on how it's done.  For example, if a starter is benched for a quarter or a half, maybe it sends him a message about the standard of play expected and could lead to better effort over the rest of the season.  But if the starter is benched for an inferior player over many games, the team will suffer.  But there are various scenarios and the only person in the best position to judge what type of move will have the best effect is the coach, you know, the guy who sees the players practically every day and understands what type of buttons to push on what type of players.  

So a shakeup can help or hurt, but the best person to make that decision is the coach who deals with the situation every day.  Not even saying that Guenther is or isn't making the right calls, but the whole point of the OP was to show that he is trying his best, working his butt off and hasn't given up trying to get better.

[Pat5775]

(11-10-2016, 01:25 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: A shakeup can help or hurt depending on how it's done.  For example, if a starter is benched for a quarter or a half, maybe it sends him a message about the standard of play expected and could lead to better effort over the rest of the season.  But if the starter is benched for an inferior player over many games, the team will suffer.  But there are various scenarios and the only person in the best position to judge what type of move will have the best effect is the coach, you know, the guy who sees the players practically every day and understands what type of buttons to push on what type of players.  

So a shakeup can help or hurt, but the best person to make that decision is the coach who deals with the situation every day.  Not even saying that Guenther is or isn't making the right calls, but the whole point of the OP was to show that he is trying his best, working his butt off and hasn't given up trying to get better.

Granted. But it's worth the risk, IMO. The status quo is not exactly working. I'm a firm believer of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Same goes the other way. The D is pretty broken, it should be a priority to try and fix it. It sounds to me like Guenther was going to try but Marvin had to jump in and get his way. Very Mike Brown-ish thing for Marv to do. Like I said before, I hope Marv know what he's doing. 

[Hoofhearted]

(11-10-2016, 01:16 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: A minor shakeup will likely hurt an already struggling defense. K, got it   God forbid they try something different 

The last thing you want to do is give up on a player. As soon as you do that, they quit playing for you. it's a slippery slope on top of an already slipper slope they are on.

Even with how much crap we give this coaching staff, I have a really hard time believing they aren't or haven't made small changes, but I wouldn't expect most casual fans to recognize it (myself included). 

IMO - Lewis was just trying to take down the expectations that Vigil - or the backups in general -  will get 50% or so of the snaps like some may be expecting. 

[Sled21]

(11-10-2016, 01:50 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: The last thing you want to do is give up on a player. As soon as you do that, they quit playing for you. it's a slippery slope on top of an already slipper slope they are on.

Even with how much crap we give this coaching staff, I have a really hard time believing they aren't or haven't made small changes, but I wouldn't expect most casual fans to recognize it (myself included). 

IMO - Lewis was just trying to take down the expectations that Vigil - or the backups in general -  will get 50% or so of the snaps like some may be expecting. 

When I see Vigil take on a LeVeon Bell or DeAngelo Williams head to head coming through the middle and stuff them, then maybe I'll feel better about him.

[Hoofhearted]

Looks like Hobs has since removed his quotes. Nothing to see here lol

[3wt]

(11-10-2016, 11:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes it could.  That is the point that many people don't understand.

I mean it could Fred, I agree with that.   But the two things that bother me are that the core people have not been getting the job done and the defensive coordinator doesn't appear to have the freedom to run his defense.

I guess you have to say that Marvin has the credentials (and the authority) to overrule his coordinators.   I'm just not sure that it is helpful for him to do that.  Pauli gets paid to figure those things out.   Staying with the status quo has failed for 8 games - some sort of change is crying out to be made.

Maybe just putting it out there helped to contribute to what was reported as the best defensive practice of the year.  But even that didn't stop Marvin from publicly humiliating his DC.

My biggest issue is that Marvin stepped all over Guenther publicly.   Just wasn't necessary.  All he had to do is respond to the interviewer that "we" have considered that option.  "We'll see"

As much as I have respected Marvin Lewis, undermining his coaches and players seems like it could be an ongoing issue.   I get the sense that is why Palmer left, clearly it was why Frazier left.  There is only a dim view on what really happens behind the scenes, but my gut twitches about this.

[XenoMorph]

(11-10-2016, 03:19 PM)3wt Wrote: I mean it could Fred, I agree with that.   But the two things that bother me are that the core people have not been getting the job done and the defensive coordinator doesn't appear to have the freedom to run his defense.

I guess you have to say that Marvin has the credentials (and the authority) to overrule his coordinators.   I'm just not sure that it is helpful for him to do that.  Pauli gets paid to figure those things out.   Staying with the status quo has failed for 8 games - some sort of change is crying out to be made.

Maybe just putting it out there helped to contribute to what was reported as the best defensive practice of the year.  But even that didn't stop Marvin from publicly humiliating his DC.

My biggest issue is that Marvin stepped all over Guenther publicly.   Just wasn't necessary.  All he had to do is respond to the interviewer that "we" have considered that option.  "We'll see"

As much as I have respected Marvin Lewis, undermining his coaches and players seems like it could be an ongoing issue.   I get the sense that is why Palmer left, clearly it was why Frazier left.  There is only a dim view on what really happens behind the scenes, but my gut twitches about this.

wait is anyone sad Frazier left?  that was a happy move

[3wt]

(11-10-2016, 03:23 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: wait is anyone sad Frazier left?  that was a happy move

Yeah it was.  So was Bresnahan.    And I don't think Marvin stepped on him.   And clearly Zim operated autonomously.  You would have to say the former should have been (if anyone should have been!) and the latter earned his autonomy.

But I think it deflates everyone inside and outside the organization when a head coach squelches his team's coaches and players.   Especially when he throws them under the bus like he did Guenther.  

[fredtoast]

(11-10-2016, 03:35 PM)3wt Wrote: But I think it deflates everyone inside and outside the organization when a head coach squelches his team's coaches and players.   Especially when he throws them under the bus like he did Guenther.  

This is getting ridiculous,

After reading hundreds of posts about how the Bengals suck because "coaches are never held accountable" now I read that criticizing the coaches will "deflate everyone inside the organization".

[jj22]

Looks like Guenther made the big mistake of demanding accountability. Marvin put an end to that fast.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-09-2016, 02:43 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: Seems Guenther is busting his butt trying to come up with ways to turn around the defense and to light a fire in the players.  I credit him for taking this serious and tough approach.  Don't know how the defense will perform the rest of the season, but considering how many complaints I've seen talking about the Bengals never giving the young players a chance and not having any fiery coaches since Zimmer  etc., I'm happy to see that changes are coming and Guenther is driving it personally.

Check this out:  http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18005572

Certainly seems that he is a coach who is going to hold players accountable.

Would rather Geunther be the HC right now. He is trying to shake things up, that is what you do when things go wrong.

You don't just keep riding the broken down horse...

(11-09-2016, 03:00 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Here's to a strong second half of the season for the defensive unit!  I'm pretty sure that the offense can hold up it's end, so long as the defense can get off the field.

I agree, i think the Offense will be fine and if the D starts to turn the corner we might just be okay.

This division is up for grabs.