Credit to Paul Guenther

[3wt]

(11-11-2016, 12:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is getting ridiculous,

After reading hundreds of posts about how the Bengals suck because "coaches are never held accountable" now I read that criticizing the coaches will "deflate everyone inside the organization".

It is deflating and creates division when a head coach undercuts his staff in public.  Which is why Marvin encourages staff and players not to air their differences in the press.  You can bet Bill Belichick has disagreements with his staff.  How much of that ever ends up in the media?  Just shouldn't have happened.

And for the record I do think Marvin holds his staff accountable.  And I don't really have any idea what REALLY happens behind closed doors.  I'm speculating on a message board.  But I don't believe that Carson Palmer left town because Marvin was coddling his diva players.  The sense from what a few (I know - it was a few) players said, and Marvin's response was that Marvin didn't really like new ideas and player input.  Since then Marvin has openly invited his core players to sit down with his staff.   I thought that was excellent.  And maybe Guenther shouldn't have mentioned his intentions in the press either.  But all Marvin had to do when he was asked was say no comment.   I mean he usually does.  I don't know why he picked this time to undercut his DC.

I don't care what organization you work for.  Public undercutting is disconcerting to everyone.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-11-2016, 05:05 PM)3wt Wrote: It is deflating and creates division when a head coach undercuts his staff in public.  Which is why Marvin encourages staff and players not to air their differences in the press.  You can bet Bill Belichick has disagreements with his staff.  How much of that ever ends up in the media?  Just shouldn't have happened.

And for the record I do think Marvin holds his staff accountable.  And I don't really have any idea what REALLY happens behind closed doors.  I'm speculating on a message board.  But I don't believe that Carson Palmer left town because Marvin was coddling his diva players.  The sense from what a few (I know - it was a few) players said, and Marvin's response was that Marvin didn't really like new ideas and player input.  Since then Marvin has openly invited his core players to sit down with his staff.   I thought that was excellent.  And maybe Guenther shouldn't have mentioned his intentions in the press either.  But all Marvin had to do when he was asked was say no comment.   I mean he usually does.  I don't know why he picked this time to undercut his DC.

I don't care what organization you work for.  Public undercutting is disconcerting to everyone.

Yep, and Marv should know about this firsthand, after he publicly said Chris Henry would never wear stripes again days before Son of Paul re-signed him. :paul:

[wolverine515151]

(11-11-2016, 12:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is getting ridiculous,

After reading hundreds of posts about how the Bengals suck because "coaches are never held accountable" now I read that criticizing the coaches will "deflate everyone inside the organization".

Holding coaches accountable needs to be done in private not public. No one said that coaches should not be held accountable. It just should be done in private. You have a comprehension problem.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-11-2016, 07:10 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Holding coaches accountable needs to be done in private not public. No one said that coaches should be not held accountable. It just should be done in private. You have a comprehension problem.

The main thing is, you don't undermine a supervisor's authority and credibility in public........that's management 101 FFS.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-11-2016, 07:17 PM)Wyche Wrote: The main thing is, you don't undermine a supervisor's authority and credibility in public........that's management 101 FFS.

Exactly

He chopped off Guenther's authority at the knees in public ! A sign of serious problems on the inside.

[BengalChris]

(11-11-2016, 09:24 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Exactly

He chopped off Guenther's authority at the knees in public ! A sign of serious problems on the inside.

I'd lay money on the fact that Marv is feeling a lot of pressure. Mike Brown, and maybe more importantly, daughter Katie may have come to the realization that Marvin is never going to turn this team into a championship caliber team no matter how many more years the team keeps him on.

It's not just one thing that's got him on the hot seat. An 0-7 playoff record is the NFL's all time worst. And it may appear like the team missed its window of opportunity. Not saying they have, but this year calls into question the personnel and assistant coaching choices in the extreme.

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-10-2016, 03:19 PM)3wt Wrote: I mean it could Fred, I agree with that.   But the two things that bother me are that the core people have not been getting the job done and the defensive coordinator doesn't appear to have the freedom to run his defense.

I guess you have to say that Marvin has the credentials (and the authority) to overrule his coordinators.   I'm just not sure that it is helpful for him to do that.  Pauli gets paid to figure those things out.   Staying with the status quo has failed for 8 games - some sort of change is crying out to be made.

Maybe just putting it out there helped to contribute to what was reported as the best defensive practice of the year.  But even that didn't stop Marvin from publicly humiliating his DC.

My biggest issue is that Marvin stepped all over Guenther publicly.   Just wasn't necessary.  All he had to do is respond to the interviewer that "we" have considered that option.  "We'll see"

As much as I have respected Marvin Lewis, undermining his coaches and players seems like it could be an ongoing issue.   I get the sense that is why Palmer left, clearly it was why Frazier left.  There is only a dim view on what really happens behind the scenes, but my gut twitches about this.

Setting aside the internal coaching strife, can you imagine what the offensive players are feeling?  They are moving the ball, and scoring at will against the Browns and the defense can't come close to stopping the worst team in the league?  The defense has been so consistently bad that if all players see bad performance and preparation go undisciplined, they might lose their desire themselves.  

[BengalFanInNJ]

Well, Guenther can say that he TIED the Redskins while Zimmer LOST to them.

Of course, the Redskin offense shredded the Bengals defense while they struggled a tad with the Vikings defense.

[fredtoast]

(11-11-2016, 07:10 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Holding coaches accountable needs to be done in private not public. No one said that coaches should not be held accountable. It just should be done in private. You have a comprehension problem.

This makes no sense.  How can you complain about Marvin not holding coaches accountable and then say that he should do it in a way that you would not know when he did it?

[wolverine515151]

Holding coaches accountable means taking decisive action against a coach. Actions are holding someone accountable not words. This would mean upper management taking decisive action and firing lewis 5 years ago. In the case of another coach that we had Bratkowski it would have meant upper management firing Bratkowski a few years earlier than he was fired. It could mean Lewis firing Haslett for the bad job he's done with the linebackers.

Secondly, when you hold someone accountable it's for doing a bad job and making the team not perform up to a certain standard. Clearly Guenther did nothing to make the team peform at a lower standard by saying those things.

Guenther is completely correct that the team needs to try new players to see what works. You certainly can't keep the same old slow worn out players starting and expect a different outcome.

Lewis is disagreeing with Guenther but that is not holding him accountable. He is merely voicing his disagreement with Guenther to the media. He is exercising his ability to spew verbal garbage to the media. He's throwing that coach under the bus and undermining team chemistry. It sends the signal to the players that they cant trust what any of the coaches are saying. They don't know who to listen to.

If Lewis had a problem with Guenther he should have told him in private that he disagrees with him and that he doesn't want him saying things to the media. You would have known this private discussion happened because you wouldn't hear anymore things from Guenther.

I've backed Lewis since hes been the coach but this is the first time I think he needs to be gone. He seems like he doesn't even care anymore. He is just collecting his paycheck of 4 million a year and going home. I don't think Lewis is completely invested in the team anymore and that's bad sign. If things don't turn around Lewis needs to be sent packing.

[Pat5775]

Sort of off topic but has anyone noticed the Bengals seem to perform worse during even-numbered years under Marv?

2004 - same record as his first season in 2003 but overall play was sloppier, I thought. No big wins, and a fairly weak schedule.

2006 - my least favorite Bengal season ever. Team finishes 8-8 again and misses 3 chances in the remaining weeks to clinch a playoff spot. Awful year after winning the AFC north the year before. Pathetic and inexcusable, and a tell-tale sign to what Marvin would become.

2008 - the putrid Ryan Fitzpatrick 4-win season. Marvin should have been fired after this season but, alas...

2010 - the T-Ocho Show 4-win season. Utter embarrassment after sweeping the AFC north the year before. So long Carson, so long Chad, Marvin doesn't need to be fired (his contract was up), but he receives an extension and delivers the infamous "Press Conference".

2012 - not terrible by any stretch of the imagination. After shocking the football world and making the playoffs with rookies AJ and Andy the year before, the team started off slow at 3-5. They beat up on some weaker teams and snuck into the playoffs thanks to a last-second Josh Brown field goal @ Pittsburgh. Arguably the luckiest Bengal November/December ever. Everything just seemed to fall into place for us... Then came January.

2014- after winning the division in 2013 with relative ease, they follow that up with yet another struggle year. Injuries took a toll, and some horrific blowout losses to Pittsburgh and the Colts (both playoffs and regular season). Again they miraculously make the playoffs but at times throughout the season they looked very Bungle-like.

2016 - what needs to be said? Just a complete dumpster fire... That will likely result in missing the playoffs for the first time in 5 years.

[Devils Advocate]

Paul Guenther's defense is terrible this year on all three levels and he still can't solve those pesky TE's. Not gonna win many games when receivers are wide open or players are out of position and/or every single opposing running back carries a dagger.

The play from the Giants game that irks me the most besides the run that sealed it, was the 4th down TD. It looked to me like players were out of position. How can a LBer be expected to cover that much ground in a zone defense? I'm certainly no expert but it appeared that the Safety on that side was playing too deep; he was at the back of the end zone. There was a receiver going near where the Safety held position, but that appeared to be a better area for Burfict to be positioned, while the Safety shoulda been closer to the goal line, not the back of the end zone. Anyone else have any thoughts on this play? Am I wrong?

[740Bengal]

Credit to Paul Guenther? Is that how he paid for his Breakfast buffet this morning with Credit?? Not sure what you mean.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-15-2016, 10:57 AM)Devils Advocate Wrote: Paul Guenther's defense is terrible this year on all three levels and he still can't solve those pesky TE's. Not gonna win many games when receivers are wide open or players are out of position and/or every single opposing running back carries a dagger.

The play from the Giants game that irks me the most besides the run that sealed it, was the 4th down TD. It looked to me like players were out of position. How can a LBer be expected to cover that much ground in a zone defense? I'm certainly no expert but it appeared that the Safety on that side was playing too deep; he was at the back of the end zone. There was a receiver going near where the Safety held position, but that appeared to be a better area for Burfict to be positioned, while the Safety shoulda been closer to the goal line, not the back of the end zone. Anyone else have any thoughts on this play? Am I wrong?

No, you're exactly right.  It was Sean Williams again.