When did Marvin become the fallguy?

[THE PISTONS]

Largely the same management structure is in place that hasn't won a playoff game in 26+ years.

The Bengals made the playoffs for 5 years in a row and fans assumed that some new mystery GM was calling the shots.

At some point, fans ire has fallen on Lewis and somehow the Bengals Management Team remains unscathed.

Thoughts?

[*Nately120*]

(11-27-2016, 11:52 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: ... the Bengals Management Team remains unscathed.

Wait, is the ocean wet in your world?

[THE Bigzoman]

When it was known that Mike Brown handed control over to Marvin.

And when Marvin went through at least 2 rebuilds.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-27-2016, 11:57 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: When it was known that Mike Brown handed control over to Marvin.

And when Marvin went through at least 2 rebuilds.

But...it's on management to fire an underperforming HC.

You can point all the fingers at Marvin that you want...but the fact of the matter is that the same management team that hasn't won a playoff game in 26+ years didn't fire him.

Also...it's a rumor that Marvin is acting as the GM. I've never read anything concrete that he actually is. People assumed when we started making the playoffs that there was some structural change.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-27-2016, 11:56 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Wait, is the ocean wet in your world?

Look...I don't think Marvin is a great coach by any means...but he also works for a team that rarely signs an external free agent to more than a 1 year deal.

Had management got him a Center in free agency a couple years back...maybe we do win a playoff game. Nope...instead they draft a 4th Round rookie and start him. 1st Round picks don't start year 1 here...yet a 4th Round Center does.

[Whatever]

(11-27-2016, 11:52 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Largely the same management structure is in place that hasn't won a playoff game in 26+ years.

The Bengals made the playoffs for 5 years in a row and fans assumed that some new mystery GM was calling the shots.

At some point, fans ire has fallen on Lewis and somehow the Bengals Management Team remains unscathed.

Thoughts?

Upper management isn't responsible for abysmal clock management, bad team discipline, blown assignments, brainless person fouls, etc.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-28-2016, 12:05 AM)Whatever Wrote: Upper management isn't responsible for abysmal clock management, bad team discipline, blown assignments, brainless person fouls, etc.

But they retain him as a coach...

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Marvin Lewis has never been a fall guy.

He has been a pretty good winter guy at signing free agents, a fair spring guy for his drafting ability, and a competent summer guy for running effective training camps.

But he isn't very good in the fall.

[Shake n Blake]

I'd say 90% of the fan base thinks Mike Brown is a stubborn, old fashioned, overly loyal buffoon who has no business running an NFL franchise. The reason it isn't talked about is that there's little to no hope that the Brown family will ever not have control of this team.

At least we have hope that Marv may eventually resign or be replaced after 20 years or so. So it's not so much that fans approve of management as it is that we all know they're going nowhere. Talking about that makes the situation feel even more hopeless than it already is.

Fwiw, Marv has definitely earned a pink slip. That said, I'm not sure any coach will succeed with the Bengals as long as Mike Brown is alive (assuming Katy is any different...which she may not be). That doesn't mean we should keep Marvin around, as he's proven - with a mountain of evidence - that he's not the answer.

I'll take the unknown over the known failure every time. Even if that unknown will be hindered by a horribly inept owner who retains horribly inept assistant coaches.

[*Nately120*]

(11-28-2016, 12:32 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'd say 90% of the fan base thinks Mike Brown is a stubborn, old fashioned, overly loyal buffoon who has no business running an NFL franchise. The reason it isn't talked about is that there's little to no hope that the Brown family will ever not have control of this team.

Agreed.  The issue with Mike Brown is that he just doesn't seem to care that he's a bad GM, or that he's not qualified to do it.  If he were delusional enough to think that he was a reasonable choice for GM, or that he was good at it there would be a chance he'd come to his senses.  But no, he absolutely has to know he's doing something he shouldn't be doing and that the franchise is losing because of it...but he accepts it and keeps on keeping on.

That right there is just the worst kind of situation.  Things are bad and everyone knows it, but the person who can make the decision just maintains the status quo.  

Mike Brown reminds me of the guy who is old and smoked his whole life and then gets a tracheotomy and then sticks the lit cigarette in his neck hole so he can keep smoking. Why stop now? It's his business, not ours. Nothing we can do. If Mike Brown can look himself in the mirror every day with the knowledge that he is the worst GM to ever last 25+ years what could WE possibly do to change his course of action.

Oof.

[Trademark]

I think Marvin should be in a GM role here he's done what he could as a coach

[treee]

January 9th, 2016

[THE PISTONS]

(11-28-2016, 12:32 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'd say 90% of the fan base thinks Mike Brown is a stubborn, old fashioned, overly loyal buffoon who has no business running an NFL franchise. The reason it isn't talked about is that there's little to no hope that the Brown family will ever not have control of this team.

At least we have hope that Marv may eventually resign or be replaced after 20 years or so. So it's not so much that fans approve of management as it is that we all know they're going nowhere. Talking about that makes the situation feel even more hopeless than it already is.

Fwiw, Marv has definitely earned a pink slip. That said, I'm not sure any coach will succeed with the Bengals as long as Mike Brown is alive (assuming Katy is any different...which she may not be). That doesn't mean we should keep Marvin around, as he's proven - with a mountain of evidence - that he's not the answer.

I'll take the unknown over the known failure every time. Even if that unknown will be hindered by a horribly inept owner who retains horribly inept assistant coaches.

Very good post. The Bengals haven't won a single playoff game since modern free agency started in 1992.

I think for any coach to win here, they're going to have to catch lightning in a bottle and I don't know if they'll be able to sustain it.

[grampahol]

In Mike Browns defense his job as the owner of a business and this team and game IS a business is to turn a profit for himself and the stock holders. It's NOT a democracy where you get to vote on anything that happens with the business. Do you like the product? No? Don't buy. It's that simple. There are more than plenty of other products you don't buy that come from very profitable businesses. You don't have to like Mike Brown, don't have to buy his products and nobody is forcing anybody to be a loyal Bengals fan. That's the bottom line.
But from every angle I can see Mike Brown is a very successful businessman. From the time his father and himself founded the team /company it's done nothing but make money for him and his shareholders. There are 31 other products from the same league you're free to choose from at any time or choose none of the above and spend your time during football season doing other things . I'm pretty sure there will be no hard feelings from the Brown family. They wont send a thug to your house to say, "Buy our stuff or we'll break your legs."

[THE PISTONS]

(11-28-2016, 12:13 PM)grampahol Wrote: In Mike Browns defense his job as the owner of a business and this team and game IS a business is to turn a profit for himself and the stock holders. It's NOT a democracy where you get to vote on anything that happens with the business. Do you like the product? No? Don't buy. It's that simple. There are more than plenty of other products you don't buy that come from very profitable businesses. You don't have to like Mike Brown, don't have to buy his products and nobody is forcing anybody to be a loyal Bengals fan. That's the bottom line.
But from every angle I can see Mike Brown is a very successful businessman. From the time his father and himself founded the team /company it's done nothing but make money for him and his shareholders. There are 31 other products from the same league you're free to choose from at any time or choose none of the above and spend your time during football season doing other things . I'm pretty sure there will be no hard feelings from the Brown family. They wont send a thug to your house to say, "Buy our stuff or we'll break your legs."

Yeah - Unfortunately normal 'business' constraints don't apply to the NFL since there is revenue sharing. If the stadium sat empty he still gets a percentage of the pie. Said stadium was also largely paid for by the taxpayers.

So the - He owns the business and can do what he wants...doesn't apply.

And...to say an NFL owner doesn't care about his customers and then call him a good businessman... Good business people ALWAYS care about the customers.

Have you ever heard of an NFL owner losing money? It doesn't happen, because the salary cap is set at a percentage of total revenue. The owners are essentially guaranteed a profit.

The good owners, who want to win...manipulate the salary cap and invest a little more into their product so they can field a better team.

[OrlandoBengal]

(11-28-2016, 12:32 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'd say 90% of the fan base thinks Mike Brown is a stubborn, old fashioned, overly loyal buffoon who has no business running an NFL franchise. The reason it isn't talked about is that there's little to no hope that the Brown family will ever not have control of this team.

At least we have hope that Marv may eventually resign or be replaced after 20 years or so. So it's not so much that fans approve of management as it is that we all know they're going nowhere. Talking about that makes the situation feel even more hopeless than it already is.

Fwiw, Marv has definitely earned a pink slip. That said, I'm not sure any coach will succeed with the Bengals as long as Mike Brown is alive (assuming Katy is any different...which she may not be). That doesn't mean we should keep Marvin around, as he's proven - with a mountain of evidence - that he's not the answer.

I'll take the unknown over the known failure every time. Even if that unknown will be hindered by a horribly inept owner who retains horribly inept assistant coaches.

This is what I really wonder.  As Bengals fans our best hope is that Mike's daughter, who learned the business from him, is somehow drastically different than he is.  Maybe, but it does not seem that is the case.  I remember seeing her on Hard Knocks during the Andre Smith negotiations and thinking "this is just about getting him as cheaply as possible, it's not at all about getting the top draft pick into camp".

[OrlandoBengal]

(11-28-2016, 12:22 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah - Unfortunately normal 'business' constraints don't apply to the NFL since there is revenue sharing. If the stadium sat empty he still gets a percentage of the pie. Said stadium was also largely paid for by the taxpayers.

So the - He owns the business and can do what he wants...doesn't apply.

And...to say an NFL owner doesn't care about his customers and then call him a good businessman... Good business people ALWAYS care about the customers.

Have you ever heard of an NFL owner losing money? It doesn't happen, because the salary cap is set at a percentage of total revenue. The owners are essentially guaranteed a profit.

The good owners, who want to win...manipulate the salary cap and invest a little more into their product so they can field a better team.

They are not "essentially" guaranteed a profit, they are completely guaranteed profit.  The biggest thing you over looked is the television deals which generate massive sums of money.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-28-2016, 12:23 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: This is what I really wonder.  As Bengals fans our best hope is that Mike's daughter, who learned the business from him, is somehow drastically different than he is.  Maybe, but it does not seem that is the case.  I remember seeing her on Hard Knocks during the Andre Smith negotiations and thinking "this is just about getting him as cheaply as possible, it's not at all about getting the top draft pick into camp".

Many times when you have management teams that have been together for years, you get 'groupthink' where everyone starts to think similar and outsiders with differing views aren't brought in.

It's probably no coincidence that guys like Lewis, Alexander, and Zampese have been here for years. They're not viewed as a threat to the current management structure.

[*Go Cards*]

If it were up to us management would have been replaced decades ago.

It is understood that MB are going nowhere and not firing family members that he is grooming to take over.

Plus a useless witch hunt for him may only provoke the team to be moved to a bigger more lucrative market.

Guess basically we understand we are hemmed in with upper management. It is a sad reality.

Sometimes HC's take falls that are not necessarily there fault but a change in culture is needed to help right the ship.

Believe it is a little of both in this situation. But Marvin's long tenure without playoff win tilts scale.

[Bengalboy]

Couple of Marvin Quotes from yesterday :

Quote:(on whether there is frustration on seeing the same stuff) “Well, it is what it is.”

Really Marvin? I think he himself has truly given up

Quote:(on the pressure on Andy [Dalton]) “We got a couple of balls tipped back at us, and we tipped a couple of balls on the other side. That seemed to be a little bit of the flavor. Some of it was the design where the play was going – the release point. So, we’ll look at it and see what the issue was. We don’t want to have a fumble there at the end. He’s moved up in the pocket, and they were just able to get a hand on the ball. That wasn’t necessarily as much pressure as him stepping up in the pocket to make the throw. And he [Elvis Dumervil] was able to get a hand on it and knock it loose from him.

The last few lines especially. I mean seriously what game was he watching. our 50 year old backup/rotation part time tackle got beat so bad on the outside, Dalton had to move up in the pocket. The guy is a douche.