Aside from OL, what position group do the Bengals need most improvement?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-05-2016, 09:49 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Defensive line.

Pat Sims isn't good, we need to understand that. Peko is a UFA and needs to go. Michael Johnson just isn't that great. Nor is Will Clarke. They're both serviceable, but not starters. Gilberry still isn't good. And Hunt also isn't good.

Sure, we have Dunlap and Atkins. But we have no real pass rushers outside of them. If Dunlap or Atkins gets hurt and misses time, just double team the other and you win one on one matchups.

We need a true pass rusher and have every opportunity to get one in the draft. We've let that slide year in and year out. But you have Derek Barnett, a guy who wants to win and broke Reggie White's college sack record. Then you have Charles Harris, another guy who can get off of blocks and get to the quarterback. Much quicker off the edge and faster. Although he doesn't have as many moves as Barnett does, he's still a great pass rusher.

Smoot is also a guy to look out for. He's a lot better than his stats say. He gets in the backfield and disrupts plays, whether it be by making a play or filling a gap or making the opponent move somewhere they don't want to.

Then in free agency you have Sheard, JPP, and Calais Campbell.

Defensive tackle free agents? Kawaan Short, Sylvester Williams, Poe, and Fariley (again).

Draft when it comes to DT? While I like Billings, we still need help there and Billings is still an unknown.

There's Malik McDowell and Jaleel Johnson.

I believe we need athletic LBs. But we have also put off defensive line for far too long.

I say draft a pass rusher (please Barnett) and get a guy like Raekwon McMillan.

But there's also a lot younger talent when it comes to the LB position when free agency comes.

Great stuff Wolf. Hassan Reddick (spelling) from Temple is a name i just heard of, don't know how early he will go...

[wolfkaosaun]

(12-05-2016, 10:06 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Great stuff Wolf. Hassan Reddick (spelling) from Temple is a name i just heard of, don't know how early he will go...

Reddick is someone I like, but he seems like a better fit for a 3-4 OLB in all honesty. Although he does have a ton of athleticism, I'm not sure he'd be a good fit here due to his strength being a pass rusher. Very talented player, I'm just afraid they might misuse him. Kind of like Dontay Moch.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-05-2016, 10:11 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Reddick is someone I like, but he seems like a better fit for a 3-4 OLB in all honesty. Although he does have a ton of athleticism, I'm not sure he'd be a good fit here due to his strength being a pass rusher. Very talented player, I'm just afraid they might misuse him. Kind of like Dontay Moch.

Great point.

Need some better coaches for God sake.

[SunsetBengal]

Alright, the community has spoken. Many of you agree that the LB position needs some serious attention, many of you feel that DL needs the attention, a few of you think Safety, and a few other of you just think crazy thoughts..

With that said, in regard to the poll, we all know that real problem with this team is the OL, right? That is why I specifically omitted it from the poll. We have had thread after thread, in regard to the OL and OL Coach. Our QB and receiving weapons are among the NFL's best, it's a shame that our OL can't muster 2+ seconds of protection, and open holes on a regular basis for the run game to be a factor.

What I'm really trying to say here is, after two bust picks at OT the last time they went big on OL in the draft, do you think that our 1st pick should again go to OL? Or, do you think that we should go with the best LB, DE, or S on the board in the 1st round? You already know that my preference this year is on LB, but sometimes the guy you wanted is already gone. That is why I'm also open to the best DE or S that may be there, and worth the pick.

[Aquapod770]

(12-04-2016, 09:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Safety

Have to agree with this. Williams is pure garbage and Iloka has looked average at best this year. 

[Hammerstripes]

(12-04-2016, 08:02 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: DE is a part of DL, is it not?  I didn't put Kicker on the list, because who in the hell spends a top pick on a freakin' kicker?

Oakland

[Derrick]

(12-05-2016, 10:24 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Alright, the community has spoken.  Many of you agree that the LB position needs some serious attention, many of you feel that DL needs the attention, a few of you think Safety, and a few other of you just think crazy thoughts..

With that said, in regard to the poll, we all know that real problem with this team is the OL, right?  That is why I specifically omitted it from the poll.  We have had thread after thread, in regard to the OL and OL Coach.  Our QB and receiving weapons are among the NFL's best, it's a shame that our OL can't muster 2+ seconds of protection, and open holes on a regular basis for the run game to be a factor.

What I'm really trying to say here is, after two bust picks at OT the last time they went big on OL in the draft, do you think that our 1st pick should again go to OL?  Or, do you think that we should go with the best LB, DE, or S on the board in the 1st round?  You already know that my preference this year is on LB, but sometimes the guy you wanted is already gone.  That is why I'm also open to the best DE or S that may be there, and worth the pick.

[Bilbo Saggins]

A really good LB to pair w/ Burfict would make the greatest impact on the roster imo.  A good DE or safety would be nice as well.

[*SHRacerX*]

I went with LB as a slight lead over defensive line. The Bengals have Burfict, and everyone else. Vinny Rey has been really solid, but they need about three more players like Vinny Rey or better talent. We don't know what we have in Vigil, yet. I would assume a fairly high pick would be used on a versatile LB because if Burfict is injured, the drop off is tremendous.

The defensive line has a lot of question marks at DT of the future. DeShawn Williams, Hardison, and Billings are all unprovens. I could see a cast away veteran FA signed here, and, IMHO, the single greatest need on the team is a RDE that can generate pressure. I would love to know MJ's score from PFF for Sunday's game....He was worthless.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-06-2016, 10:02 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I went with LB as a slight lead over defensive line.  The Bengals have Burfict, and everyone else.  Vinny Rey has been really solid, but they need about three more players like Vinny Rey or better talent.  We don't know what we have in Vigil, yet.  I would assume a fairly high pick would be used on a versatile LB because if Burfict is injured, the drop off is tremendous.  

The defensive line has a lot of question marks at DT of the future.  DeShawn Williams, Hardison, and Billings are all unprovens.  I could see a cast away veteran FA signed here, and, IMHO, the single greatest need on the team is a RDE that can generate pressure.  I would love to know MJ's score from PFF for Sunday's game....He was worthless.

I'm right there with you on LB being slightly more of a priority over RDE.  The reason that I go with LB is that pressure is great, but let's face it, there are a lot of athletic QBs that can outrun a DL.  You also need athletic, strong tackling LBs to stop people from moving freely in space, when they escape the pressure of the DL.

Some mention S as a primary need, but not so sure that I fully agree with them.  Just last year, Iloka looked All-Pro quality and Williams looked fully prepared to assume the load of a leaving Reggie Nelson.  Now, those guys physical skills didn't just vanish in an offseason.  What happened was Vance Joseph also moved on.  For whatever reason, Coyle is not getting the coaching job done with the Safeties.  Bengal management needs to take a serious look at either bringing on an extra assistant to handle the Safeties, or consider a change at the DBs coaching position, altogether.

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-06-2016, 10:31 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm right there with you on LB being slightly more of a priority over RDE.  The reason that I go with LB is that pressure is great, but let's face it, there are a lot of athletic QBs that can outrun a DL.  You also need athletic, strong tackling LBs to stop people from moving freely in space, when they escape the pressure of the DL.

Some mention S as a primary need, but not so sure that I fully agree with them.  Just last year, Iloka looked All-Pro quality and Williams looked fully prepared to assume the load of a leaving Reggie Nelson.  Now, those guys physical skills didn't just vanish in an offseason.  What happened was Vance Joseph also moved on.  For whatever reason, Coyle is not getting the coaching job done with the Safeties.  Bengal management needs to take a serious look at either bringing on an extra assistant to handle the Safeties, or consider a change at the DBs coaching position, altogether.

Dead on when it comes to the safeties.  Shawn Williams has struggled, but I think Derron Smith and Josh Shaw provide quality depth should they need to replace him.  Williams has gotten burned a lot, but I think he has learned a lot.  I wish the Bengals had him more in the box and let him play to his strengths, but I digress.

I don't see the LB need as greater than the RDE need, but as a position group I took LB over DL.  I think there is no way a RDE isn't our first pick.  We are starting to see an alarming number of first round busts at OT because so many of them don't come from NFL-style offenses and we really don't know their skill set.  They are kind of just drafted as athletes.  LBs are similar in that they are facing more two TE sets, and dealing with pulling guards instead of spread offenses.  

I think a stud RDE would make the entire defense work.  MJ will probably disclose an injury excuse for this season, but he is not doing anything out there.  There are three really strong prospects that fit a RDE in a 4-3 coming out with first round grades.  I would be shocked if the Bengals don't grab one.  LB will be addressed in rounds 3 and 4, would be my guess. 

[fredtoast]

(12-05-2016, 07:24 AM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote:   Johnson and peko are like tits on a bull totally worthless.

(12-05-2016, 09:49 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote:  Michael Johnson just isn't that great. Nor is Will Clarke. They're both serviceable, but not starters.

(12-06-2016, 10:45 AM)SHRacerX Wrote:   MJ will probably disclose an injury excuse for this season, but he is not doing anything out there.

Among all DEs MJ ranks 10th in stuffs (tackle for loss on running play), 12th in solo tackles, 14th in tipped passes, 15th in QB hurries, and 19th in total tackles. 



I know people expected more sacks, but all of these claims that he is "doing nothing" or "not a starter" are absurd.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-06-2016, 11:17 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Among all DEs MJ ranks 10th in stuffs (tackle for loss on running play), 12th in solo tackles, 14th in tipped passes, 15th in QB hurries, and 19th in total tackles. 



I know people expected more sacks, but all of these claims that he is "doing nothing" or "not a starter" are absurd.

Right, a lot of fans are looking for one simple factor to lay blame on, when in reality it is a combination of things leading to a lack of success.  I made a post some time back about ".5 seconds", with the point of it being that our OL needed to give Andy .5 seconds more protection, and open holes for .5 seconds longer to allow run plays to develop.  I also continues to explain that the .5 seconds also applied on defense, as covering opposing receivers for just .5 seconds longer, on average, was the difference between QBs finding an open target, or being forced to throw the ball away, take a sack, or make an ill advised throw.

Personally, I feel that the root of our defensive problems lie in the change in coaching for the Safeties, and a general lack of speed and athleticism at the LB position.  I think that the DT and CB positions will get a huge shot in the arm next season, with a healthy Billings and Jackson making contributions.  I really feel like the LB position is the one lacking, as they don't have the overall speed and athleticism to stop people in space, when plays begin to break down.  I feel like this issue was masked a bit last season, when we were blessed with superior play from the Safety position.  Now, that our Safety play is average at best, this weakness at LB is magnified.

[Hoofhearted]

(12-04-2016, 09:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Iloka is the TJ Housmanzadah on Safeties. Williams has never been more than average.

They are also both under contract for the next 4-5 years. Why would we draft a safety that high when all he will do is sit? 

[Hoofhearted]

(12-06-2016, 11:17 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Among all DEs MJ ranks 10th in stuffs (tackle for loss on running play), 12th in solo tackles, 14th in tipped passes, 15th in QB hurries, and 19th in total tackles. 



I know people expected more sacks, but all of these claims that he is "doing nothing" or "not a starter" are absurd.

He's like Robert Geathers, but cost almost double the money.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-06-2016, 11:36 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Right, a lot of fans are looking for one simple factor to lay blame on, when in reality it is a combination of things leading to a lack of success.  I made a post some time back about ".5 seconds", with the point of it being that our OL needed to give Andy .5 seconds more protection, and open holes for .5 seconds longer to allow run plays to develop.  I also continues to explain that the .5 seconds also applied on defense, as covering opposing receivers for just .5 seconds longer, on average, was the difference between QBs finding an open target, or being forced to throw the ball away, take a sack, or make an ill advised throw.

Personally, I feel that the root of our defensive problems lie in the change in coaching for the Safeties, and a general lack of speed and athleticism at the LB position.  I think that the DT and CB positions will get a huge shot in the arm next season, with a healthy Billings and Jackson making contributions.  I really feel like the LB position is the one lacking, as they don't have the overall speed and athleticism to stop people in space, when plays begin to break down.  I feel like this issue was masked a bit last season, when we were blessed with superior play from the Safety position.  Now, that our Safety play is average at best, this weakness at LB is magnified.

I think they're neck and neck,

I mean we need both in a bad way - DE, LB

We don't get any pressure on opposing QB's the vast majority of the time and that factors in as well. But I fully agree we need more speed at LB.

In fact, this teams needs can't be addressed by the draft alone.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-06-2016, 12:39 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I think they're neck and neck,

I mean we need both in a bad way - DE, LB

We don't get any pressure on opposing QB's the vast majority of the time and that factors in as well. But I fully agree we need more speed at LB.

In fact, this teams needs can't be addressed by the draft alone.

Here's the thing, I've not observed the Bengal DL get completely stonewalled very many times, but I've observed Safeties out of position, and LBs struggling to get to a spot more times than I care to remember.

I really feel like the problem with the Safeties is a coaching deficiency, but the LB problem is a lack of physical speed and athleticism.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-05-2016, 10:24 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Alright, the community has spoken.  Many of you agree that the LB position needs some serious attention, many of you feel that DL needs the attention, a few of you think Safety, and a few other of you just think crazy thoughts..

With that said, in regard to the poll, we all know that real problem with this team is the OL, right?  That is why I specifically omitted it from the poll.  We have had thread after thread, in regard to the OL and OL Coach.  Our QB and receiving weapons are among the NFL's best, it's a shame that our OL can't muster 2+ seconds of protection, and open holes on a regular basis for the run game to be a factor.

What I'm really trying to say here is, after two bust picks at OT the last time they went big on OL in the draft, do you think that our 1st pick should again go to OL?  Or, do you think that we should go with the best LB, DE, or S on the board in the 1st round?  You already know that my preference this year is on LB, but sometimes the guy you wanted is already gone.  That is why I'm also open to the best DE or S that may be there, and worth the pick.

Definately best LB, DE or O-lineman on the board in the 1st round. I don't find Safety to be as big of a weakness as
others on here. Derron Smith and Josh Shaw are both very talented depth if Shawn does not improve. Iloka has played
poorly this year but we have seen him play very well in the past. Coaching is what needs to improve here.

Coyle has not coached well yet this year IMHO.

If we get an athletic, talented LB next to Burfict it will really improve this team. LB's have been out of position a lot
this year and again this is on coaching but athleticism has also been a problem. Dansby is getting old, Maualuga has
never really been known for his athleticism. Vinny has played well but we need a future.

Don't know what we have yet with Vigil and Flowers. Flowers being our most athletic backer.

[Millhouse]

I voted D-line, because a dominant D-line has a bigger ripple effect on the rest of the D as opposed to the LBs or the backend (in general). Granted if a a true shutdown corner is there in the 1st, I'd rather have him for the same ripple effect that can bring. But in general I'd rather have a dominant D-line first, then start building behind them.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-06-2016, 03:49 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I voted D-line, because a dominant D-line has a bigger ripple effect on the rest of the D as opposed to the LBs or the backend (in general). Granted if a a true shutdown corner is there in the 1st, I'd rather have him for the same ripple effect that can bring. But in general I'd rather have a dominant D-line first, then start building behind them.

Cannot ever disagree with this logic.