Aside from OL, what position group do the Bengals need most improvement?

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-06-2016, 11:17 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Among all DEs MJ ranks 10th in stuffs (tackle for loss on running play), 12th in solo tackles, 14th in tipped passes, 15th in QB hurries, and 19th in total tackles. 



I know people expected more sacks, but all of these claims that he is "doing nothing" or "not a starter" are absurd.

Mr absurd checking in...you know me:  the one who attends every home game and gets the coaches cuts?

You might have seen rankings of him in specific categories, but the last ranking I saw that PFF had out there was around 50th of DEs.  He plays in a 4-3, where many people called DEs are really DTs in a 3-4 defense, where one of the two DEs are lined up inside and outside linebacker/passrusher. These guys are not put in the same places as MJ to make those plays you quoted.  A RDE in a 4-3 defense has to be able to speed rush around the edge.  There were plays Sunday where MJ was shoved 8 yards away from the pocket.  A non-factor.  I need more out of a 4-3 RDE that gets most QBs blindside.  

Why not post the players he is ranked ahead of and the players he is ranked behind in a separate thread.  Just call it:  "I am the only one who thinks MJ is good" and enlighten us all with some stats that are completely different than what we see in the games.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-06-2016, 04:51 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Mr absurd checking in...you know me:  the one who attends every home game and gets the coaches cuts?

You might have seen rankings of him in specific categories, but the last ranking I saw that PFF had out there was around 50th of DEs.  He plays in a 4-3, where many people called DEs are really DTs in a 3-4 defense, where one of the two DEs are lined up inside and outside linebacker/passrusher. These guys are not put in the same places as MJ to make those plays you quoted.  A RDE in a 4-3 defense has to be able to speed rush around the edge.  There were plays Sunday where MJ was shoved 8 yards away from the pocket.  A non-factor.  I need more out of a 4-3 RDE that gets most QBs blindside.  

Why not post the players he is ranked ahead of and the players he is ranked behind in a separate thread.  Just call it:  "I am the only one who thinks MJ is good" and enlighten us all with some stats that are completely different than what we see in the games.  

MJ played pretty good against the Bills. Other than that he has had a very disappointing season to say the least.

I thought he would be a breakout player this year too. Boy was i wrong. Great man but we need a good pass rusher at RE.

[wolfkaosaun]

(12-06-2016, 11:17 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Among all DEs MJ ranks 10th in stuffs (tackle for loss on running play), 12th in solo tackles, 14th in tipped passes, 15th in QB hurries, and 19th in total tackles. 



I know people expected more sacks, but all of these claims that he is "doing nothing" or "not a starter" are absurd.

MJ ranks 10th with Irving, Bosa, Hicks, Bennett, Hyder, Tuitt, Lawerence, Fowler, and Nunez-Rocher.

He has 4 run stuffs. The same amount as 34 other players. Including two safeties. Pat Sims and Geno Atkins have as many run stuffs as him.

Cool, 29 solo tackles isn't bad. But Dunlap has less solo tackles than him. So does that mean Dunlap is worse? Last year, Dunlap only had 37 solo tackles. Atkins only had 31 solo tackles.

MJ has two passes tipped.

Hurries are a fun stat. But MJ doesn't finish plays. He has 3 sacks this entire season. He hasn't caused any turnovers. Numerous times even when he has gotten pressure, he misses tackles or can't get the QB down.

To believe that we can't/shouldn't get an upgrade over MJ is absurd

[fredtoast]

(12-06-2016, 04:51 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Why not post the players he is ranked ahead of and the players he is ranked behind in a separate thread.  Just call it:  "I am the only one who thinks MJ is good" and enlighten us all with some stats that are completely different than what we see in the games.  

I can't help it if you can't see MJ make tackles and get pressure on the QB in games.  That is your problem not mine.

MJ is not a star, but it is ridiculous to claim he "does nothing" or "is not a starter".  I would like to have a double digit sack guy instead of him, but we have many other "holes" we have to fill before we start looking for a replacement for MJ.  There are many teams that would love to have his production from their RDE.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-06-2016, 05:23 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: MJ ranks 10th with Irving, Bosa, Hicks, Bennett, Hyder, Tuitt, Lawerence, Fowler, and Nunez-Rocher.

He has 4 run stuffs. The same amount as 34 other players. Including two safeties. Pat Sims and Geno Atkins have as many run stuffs as him.

Cool, 29 solo tackles isn't bad. But Dunlap has less solo tackles than him. So does that mean Dunlap is worse? Last year, Dunlap only had 37 solo tackles. Atkins only had 31 solo tackles.

MJ has two passes tipped.

Hurries are a fun stat. But MJ doesn't finish plays. He has 3 sacks this entire season. He hasn't caused any turnovers. Numerous times even when he has gotten pressure, he misses tackles or can't get the QB down.

To believe that we can't/shouldn't get an upgrade over MJ is absurd

:andy:

[coachmcneil71]

(12-04-2016, 09:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Safety

I voted LB but a center field type of S would be great as well.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-06-2016, 07:04 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: I voted LB but a center field type of S would be great as well.

As much as I'm stuck on LB, I would be thrilled if they took someone like Malik Hooker in the 2nd.  Although, my better judgement says the poor Safety play is more a result of the coaching change, than the players on the field.

[Derrick]

(12-06-2016, 05:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I can't help it if you can't see MJ make tackles and get pressure on the QB in games.  That is your problem not mine.

MJ is not a star, but it is ridiculous to claim he "does nothing" or "is not a starter".  I would like to have a double digit sack guy instead of him, but we have many other "holes" we have to fill before we start looking for a replacement for MJ.  There are many teams that would love to have his production from their RDE.

Maybe a good coach could teach him how to overcome some of his weaknesses allowing him to actually get a paw on the QB. Oh wait...we don't have a coach who can do that during the season.

[coachmcneil71]

(12-06-2016, 07:33 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: As much as I'm stuck on LB, I would be thrilled if they took someone like Malik Hooker in the 2nd.  Although, my better judgement says the poor Safety play is more a result of the coaching change, than the players on the field.

I agree on all things mentioned. Hooker came to my mind as well, but not sure he lasts past the first round. I'm not a fan of Haslett or Coyle. A S that may fall into the second because of injury is Derwin James from FSU.

I would be happy with either one.

[bengalguy71]

Personally, my 2 cent opinion is, it really makes little difference until Brown passes the baton or gives up control, cleans house, and hires a good GM, who's willing to get a staff that's ready to go after a Lombardi.

[bengalguy71]

(12-06-2016, 07:04 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: I voted LB but a center field type of S would be great as well.

They may have that with Fej and Smith.  Gotta let them have a shot!  From what I've seen from them, I liked.

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-06-2016, 05:04 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: MJ played pretty good against the Bills. Other than that he has had a very disappointing season to say the least.

I thought he would be a breakout player this year too. Boy was i wrong. Great man but we need a good pass rusher at RE.

Exactly.  It has nothing to do with him as a person.  And I feel bad if he is trying to gut it out with an injury, but he simply isn't a quick twitch guy at RDE.

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-06-2016, 05:23 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: MJ ranks 10th with Irving, Bosa, Hicks, Bennett, Hyder, Tuitt, Lawerence, Fowler, and Nunez-Rocher.

He has 4 run stuffs. The same amount as 34 other players. Including two safeties. Pat Sims and Geno Atkins have as many run stuffs as him.

Cool, 29 solo tackles isn't bad. But Dunlap has less solo tackles than him. So does that mean Dunlap is worse? Last year, Dunlap only had 37 solo tackles. Atkins only had 31 solo tackles.

MJ has two passes tipped.

Hurries are a fun stat. But MJ doesn't finish plays. He has 3 sacks this entire season. He hasn't caused any turnovers. Numerous times even when he has gotten pressure, he misses tackles or can't get the QB down.

To believe that we can't/shouldn't get an upgrade over MJ is absurd

Uh oh, someone is using statistics with an actual comparator...

You are sure to be told you don't know what you are talking about and you don't watch the games.  

[Jpoore]

(12-06-2016, 07:33 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: As much as I'm stuck on LB, I would be thrilled if they took someone like Malik Hooker in the 2nd.  Although, my better judgement says the poor Safety play is more a result of the coaching change, than the players on the field.

Hooker has already said there is a 100 percent chance he's coming back next year but really love either McMillan great instincts great hands and great at run stuffer but can also defend in coverage or eifling great center would make us a top 5 running team up the middle

[fredtoast]

(12-06-2016, 05:23 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Cool, 29 solo tackles isn't bad. But Dunlap has less solo tackles than him. So does that mean Dunlap is worse? Last year, Dunlap only had 37 solo tackles. Atkins only had 31 solo tackles.

Not sure what you are even trying to day here.

Are you claiming that shedding blockers and making tackles is meaningless for a defensive player?

[fredtoast]

(12-06-2016, 05:23 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Hurries are a fun stat.

Again, not sure what you are trying to say here.

What makes a stat "fun"?

Are you saying that QB hurries are also meaningless?

[Hoofhearted]

(12-06-2016, 05:23 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: MJ ranks 10th with Irving, Bosa, Hicks, Bennett, Hyder, Tuitt, Lawerence, Fowler, and Nunez-Rocher.

He has 4 run stuffs. The same amount as 34 other players. Including two safeties. Pat Sims and Geno Atkins have as many run stuffs as him.

Cool, 29 solo tackles isn't bad. But Dunlap has less solo tackles than him. So does that mean Dunlap is worse? Last year, Dunlap only had 37 solo tackles. Atkins only had 31 solo tackles.

MJ has two passes tipped.

Hurries are a fun stat. But MJ doesn't finish plays. He has 3 sacks this entire season. He hasn't caused any turnovers. Numerous times even when he has gotten pressure, he misses tackles or can't get the QB down.

To believe that we can't/shouldn't get an upgrade over MJ is absurd

THIS! I am not saying he's not starter material, just that his play is a dime a dozen. You can find a decent run stuffing RDE for probably about half the cost of what he's making. I compare him to a Robert Geathers, and think his pay should be close to that, but it's actually almost doubled. Johnson's contract is not obscene, but he cannot be cut this year or he would incur $5.4 million in dead money. Even after this year, he has a total of $3.4 million in guarantees remaining in his contract.

 
With that said, I am with Fred with that there are other areas we need to upgrade first. 

[CincyWestside]

We obviously have many holes that need filled in various groups on the field.

As for our weakest group overall, I would say it is easily the LBs. The OL is a close second for me as well. The secondary is definitely a concern too.

As it stands, the Bengals are likely going to get a top 10 pick. However, looking at all the weaknesses overall and given our likely position in the draft, I think it is best to go with a DL (preferably a DE). I think OL are becoming more common in the draft and most mock drafts do not have any C rated as a 1st rounder. Foster is a stud LB, but I do not know if he or any other LB would really be top 10 worthy. I think a top 10 DL would go a long way to solving a lot of the needs on defense. Adding pressure to opposing QBs will go a long way towards negating our coverages being exposed.

[eoxyod]

In all honesty the Bengals just need an Al Davis like draft. Speed, speed, speed. We are one of the slowest teams in the league

[3wt]

I voted LB, but it will be who the best player available is.  We should have a shot at a LB, DE or Safety.


The guy I think would be the biggest impact player is Reuben Foster.  Next to Tez we would have a couple of impact linebackers that I think would have a big ripple effect.

But I have to admit that by position group the DL and S positions really need an infusion of talent.   Derek Barnett or Jamal Adams would be very nice additions to position groups that have serious needs.

Those 3 players are who I think would have the biggest impact on our team that have a reasonable chance of being there when we pick.

But between the 3 I'd go Foster.