I feel bad for Andy

[fredtoast]

(12-29-2016, 09:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I just need a list. No hand-holding required. 

I have clearly stated where I think Dalton ranks and exactly who I think is better and in the same class as him.

Lets see if bfine can figure out the rest by hiumself.

[*bfine32*]

(12-30-2016, 03:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have clearly stated where I think Dalton ranks and exactly who I think is better and in the same class as him.

Lets see if bfine can figure out the rest by hiumself.

Where have I suggested that you haven't stated who you feel is clearly better than Andy?

I asked (numerous times) for you to provide a list of those starters you consider clearly worse; I've even provided you with a list of stating QBs. Your reluctance to provide this list is quite telling. If you deem a round of CSI necessary; as opposed to you simply providing this list; I will just conclude that everyone other than the list of QBs you listed as better are the clearly worse population.

Is that your list or does your modifier of clearly change those that you consider worse? Credit to Shake for at least providing a list even though he removed the clearly modifier and added "worse or would not trade for". 

STILL waiting on you to provide the list of 20-24 starting QBs you consider to be clearly worse than Andy. 

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(12-25-2016, 10:01 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Dalton knew what he was getting into when he signed here.

What was the Bengals' record the year prior to Andy Dalton being drafted? 4-12. Andy expected to win from Day One and until this abysmal train reck* of a season, he did win. I saw a new look on his face this season: Anger and frustration.








*I know it's spelled "wreck" but there are no Ws to be found.

[JumboTron]

(12-30-2016, 04:42 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: What was the Bengals' record the year prior to Andy Dalton being drafted? 4-12.  Andy expected to win from Day One and until this abysmal train reck* of a season, he did win. I saw a new look on his face this season: Anger and frustration.








*I know it's spelled "wreck" but there are no Ws to be found.

Eh, that's just him coming to terms with the fact that he has no soul on the account of him being a ginger and all...

[Shake n Blake]

(12-30-2016, 04:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Where have I suggested that you haven't stated who you feel is clearly better than Andy?

I asked (numerous times) for you to provide a list of those starters you consider clearly worse; I've even provided you with a list of stating QBs. Your reluctance to provide this list is quite telling. If you deem a round of CSI necessary; as opposed to you simply providing this list; I will just conclude that everyone other than the list of QBs you listed as better are the clearly worse population.

Is that your list or does your modifier of clearly change those that you consider worse? Credit to Shake for at least providing a list even though he removed the clearly modifier and added "worse or would not trade for".

STILL waiting on you to provide the list of 20-24 starting QBs you consider to be clearly worse than Andy. 

I explained why I didn't use "clearly", and I've also stated that my list of 23 QBs would remain the same whether or not we're talking trade or who would you want if the goal is to win now. Unlike some, I'm not dancing around questions like this is a chess match. 

Heck, I think the list of 32 starting QBs speaks for itself. I'm glad we have Dalton. 

[OrlandoBengal]

(12-29-2016, 06:47 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I think the problem is people WANT to believe Andy should be ranked around 14-19 or so, but when they look at the list of 32 starters, it dawns on them that there really aren't that many unquestionably great QBs that clearly belong ahead of Dalton. 

You have your elites, then you have your 2nd tier with Dalton, Cam, Stafford, Luck types. I can't argue with having Dalton around 13th, as long as people realize Dalton probably belongs in that 2nd tier group.

I think people get too concerned with the exact number.  "Oh no, someone has his ranked as #13 and he's clearly better than the person ranked at number 10 or 11".  Once you get into that second tier, I don't personally think there is a huge difference.  Depending on the year, one or two guys might elevate their play (like Dalton did last year), but those guys are all really close in abilities.

[fredtoast]

(12-30-2016, 03:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote:

1. fredtoast
   

I have clearly stated where I think Dalton ranks and exactly who I think is better and in the same class as him.

Lets see if bfine can figure out the rest by hiumself.

(12-30-2016, 04:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: STILL waiting on you to provide the list of 20-24 starting QBs you consider to be clearly worse than Andy. 

And we have our answer.

He knows who I think is better than Andy.

He knows who I think is in the same class as Andy.

But he is still unable to figure out who I think Andy is better than.

[Shake n Blake]

(12-30-2016, 06:36 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: I think people get too concerned with the exact number.  "Oh no, someone has his ranked as #13 and he's clearly better than the person ranked at number 10 or 11".  Once you get into that second tier, I don't personally think there is a huge difference.  Depending on the year, one or two guys might elevate their play (like Dalton did last year), but those guys are all really close in abilities.

Agreed. Year to year there's fluctuation. Ranking QBs in tiers is probably more fair than assigning an exact number. The only reason exact numbers are brought up is so anti Dalton guys can say he ranks around 16th as a way of calling him average, and the pro Andy guys can say he's top 10 (above average/good).

[*bfine32*]

(12-30-2016, 06:17 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I explained why I didn't use "clearly", and I've also stated that my list of 23 QBs would remain the same whether or not we're talking trade or who would you want if the goal is to win now. Unlike some, I'm not dancing around questions like this is a chess match. 

Heck, I think the list of 32 starting QBs speaks for itself. I'm glad we have Dalton. 

As I said credit for posting your list and we all know the reason behind the person dancing does not provide a list; as it is easier to tell someone else their list is "wrong" than it is to defend your own. 

For instance there is no way that Dalton is better than Rivers; given Rivers has a career passer rating of 94 and is every bit the QB that Big Ben is; also you would be in the vast minority if you would not trade a 29 year old Andy Dalton who has only had a passer rating of over 90 once in his career for a 23 year old Marcus Mariota who has never had a rating below 91 and is a huge threat with his legs. 

I too am glad we have Andy; I just assign him to the mid-tier of NFL starters. 

[*bfine32*]

(12-30-2016, 08:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And we have our answer.

He knows who I think is better than Andy.

He knows who I think is in the same class as Andy.

But he is still unable to figure out who I think Andy is better than.

Still waiting on you to provide the list of 20-24 NFL starting QBs that are clearly worse than Andy Dalton. Matter of fact...never mind. 

[Butchie Tiger]

I agree Andy is a mid-tier starter but when it comes to a QB I would take to win a Big game, I'm sorry but Andy is on the lowest-tier starter list available.

[milksheikh]

I read somewhere that it's been his first losing season as a football player since like high school or something.

He's been a winner for most of his life, don't blame him for being sad or angry.

[Shake n Blake]

(12-30-2016, 09:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As I said credit for posting your list and we all know the reason behind the person dancing does not provide a list; as it is easier to tell someone else their list is "wrong" than it is to defend your own. 

For instance there is no way that Dalton is better than Rivers; given Rivers has a career passer rating of 94 and is every bit the QB that Big Ben is; also you would be in the vast minority if you would not trade a 29 year old Andy Dalton who has only had a passer rating of over 90 once in his career for a 23 year old Marcus Mariota who has never had a rating below 91 and is a huge threat with his legs. 

I too am glad we have Andy; I just assign him to the mid-tier of NFL starters. 

So you take age into account with Andy vs Mariota, but ignore age with Andy vs Rivers. Seems fair.

[fredtoast]

(12-30-2016, 09:04 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Still waiting on you to provide the list of 20-24 NFL starting QBs that are clearly worse than Andy Dalton. Matter of fact...never mind. 

If you know who I think is better than dalton and who I think is in the same class as him then why is it impossible for you to figure out who I think is worse?

Could it be that you don't really want to get into any sort of serious debate about my opinion on where Andy ranks compared to other QBs, but instead want to just want to play silly little games?

[*Awful Llama*]

(12-30-2016, 09:10 PM)milksheikh Wrote: I read somewhere that it's been his first losing season as a football player since like high school or something.

He's been a winner for most of his life, don't blame him for being sad or angry.

Yeah, going all the way back to middle school he's never been on a losing team. 

He can **** Jordan on an NFL pile of cash if he really needs a pick-me-up  :andy:

[Shake n Blake]

(12-30-2016, 09:09 PM)Butchie Tiger Wrote: I agree Andy is a mid-tier starter but when it comes to a QB I would take to win a Big game, I'm sorry but Andy is on the lowest-tier starter list available.

Andy in playoffs: 158 attempts - 57.8 rating
Marv's other QBs in playoffs - 117 attempts - 62.4 rating

Andy in prime time - 78.6 rating
Carson in prime time under Marv - 74.9 rating

---------------

Fwiw, since the infamous 2.0 game, Dalton has played in 9 prime time games with an overall passer rating of 90.4. The team still has a losing record in those games though (3-5-1).

[*bfine32*]

(12-30-2016, 09:12 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So you take age into account with Andy vs Mariota, but ignore age with Andy vs Rivers. Seems fair.

Of course I consider age and this why I most likely wouldn't trade Andy for Rivers (most likely). It was simply pointing out that if you get to say better than or trade for; then you are combining 2 criteria to increase the folks you can put Andy ahead of.

You're not Fred, so as a practical exercise answer these two questions:

Is Andy currently better than Rivers?

Would you trade Andy Dalton for Marcus Mariota?

[Shake n Blake]

(12-30-2016, 10:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course I consider age and this why I most likely wouldn't trade Andy for Rivers (most likely). It was simply pointing out that if you get to say better than or trade for; then you are combining 2 criteria to increase the folks you can put Andy ahead of.

You're not Fred, so as a practical exercise answer these two questions:

Is Andy currently better than Rivers?

Would you trade Andy Dalton for Marcus Mariota?

I already said that I'd take Dalton over every QB on my list even if we're strictly talking about this year OR next year only. So I'm not sure why you continue to talk like I was trying to word things just right to make Andy seem better. 

To answer your questions, no I don't think Rivers is better as of now. It's very possible he's fallen off a notch. He leads the league in INTs, his rating is ranked 18th, and his completion % is his worst since 2007.

Mariota could very well be better than Dalton in the long haul. Who knows? As of now, I think Dalton is the better QB in the worse situation. I think being behind Ogbuehi would be disastrous for Mariota's development, so no I wouldn't trade as of now. The Titans are taking the proper route of trying to develop him like young Ben or Wilson. Ride a fantastic run game and keep pressure off his shoulders. He would not get that in Cincy.