Let's Talk 3-4 Defense in Cincy

[kevin]

Our 2 Super Bowl trips, Bengals played a 3-4 defense....I see many play-off teams in a 3-4....I see many good college teams who do not play a 4-3.....Could Atkins be a Tim Krumrie type in a 3-4 ?.....We have Dunlap and I guess MJ at DE....This does not mean we only can rush 3 players, far from it....We do not have enough bodies or talent at LB to play a 3-4. We could not if we wanted to. With Free Agency and a draft coming of some very skilled Alabama linebackers early, we could man up at linebacker. The Steelers own the Bengals and they have played a 3-4 for years thanks to Pro Bowl LeBeau defenses. .....I look back to our Super Bowls and see a great offensive line and a 3-4 defense that would change the blitzing man and keep offenses confused. ....I would love if we had the ability to play 4-3 and 3-4, mix it up, but lets face it, we just never have enough players or talent at linebacker to consider it......I thought the 1980s Browns and Raiders had great 4 linebacker defenses. They made throwing in front of the linebackers foolish and impossible. More and more teams are going to these screen passes, often behind line of scrimmage. How many times do Bengals throw short of first down on third down ? A lot. A good 3-4 would destroy these passes in front of the linebackers, these plays do not work. Often they go for a loss of yards. A good 3-4 forces the QB to go over the linebackers, but if you have good defensive backs, this is in your defenses favor. Anything short the 3-4 eats alive and anything deep the DB's are all over. Our Bengals D coaches in Super Bowl years mixed up the blitzes to keep heat on the QB.......The last time we won a play-off game, we were in a 3-4 defense.....Of course 4, 5, 6 men start off close to the line and the QB has no idea who is coming.

I know over the years there have been other threads on 3-4 defense...Going into the off season before player moves, lets discuss it again. Teams are winning with it. Steelers own us with it. Some on here may remember the Browns tough 3-4 in 1980's decade that gave us fits. We went to 2 Super Bowls in a 3-4 defense. Our last play-off win was in a 3-4 defense. Now Montana to Rice and Taylor could go deep, and that beat us, just barely. Otherwise there are few teams that can go deep like that and the 3-4 just blows up all the rinky dink short yardage stuff and often gets turnovers on these. If you have good cover corners as we had in Riley and Breeden, you are talking Super Bowl.

Now we have Atkins and you want to get the most out of this possible Hall of Fame Bengal. I would like to see us in summer and preseason to have the players to try it and see. These guys know the 4-3. Add some 3-4 packages and see how it works. It could work great. If not, these guys know the 4-3. Atkins, Dunlap, MJ could be better than Edwards, Browner, Whitley that went Super Bowl or Krumrie, McClendon, Show who went Super Bowl. ....but the key is getting the most out of Atkins. If he doesn't fit well in a 3-4, then it is no good. It is something to try in practices, and these guys know the 4-3 packages if the 3-4 just doesn't work with Atkins in practice. Teams have multiple offensive formations and the defenses should have multiple defense ability as well. A LB that can be a tweener, an edge rusher and a linebacker like The Mad Stork or Harrison would be a Monster Man. The ability to go from 3-4 to 4-3 in a second. That would be awesome. We are a good defense, but we could be better. If we could really mix up the packages, 3-4, 4-3, 5-2, 3-3-5, all forms of defenses, the ability to defend any offense, stop any foe. I myself like the 3-3 front 7 with a monster man who reads the offense before the snap. The Mad Stork was great at that and offenses had no idea where he would be because defensive coach had no idea where he would be. The Joker in the deck that is in the right place at the right time more often than not. Such a player has to be able to line up at D line or LB. Too bad, David Pollack had the ability to be this type player before his terrible neck injury. ....Alabama has some interesting first round linebackers. It would take an all around athlete with a high motor and the mentality to read the offense as a QB reads a defense. .....Of course if we had Burfict and 3 other linebackers and blitzed a different one each time, that is how we went to 2 Super Bowls.

[Bilbo Saggins]

I like the occasional 3-4 look, but there are simply not enough players on the roster who can both rush and cover for it to make sense as much more than just a wrinkle.  How many times did we witness MJ or Dunlap surrendering easy yards because they are not linebackers and can't really cover people this past season?  About the only player in the front 7 who has shown any ability to both rush and cover at a quality level is Burfict, and his success at getting to the QB may be due in part to how seldom he does it.  It's pretty obvious that this roster does not have a set of 3-4 OLBs on it.  When you look at the down linemen it looks even less appealing.  Dunlap is very good at his role of 4-3 DE because he can use his speed around the edge at times.  In a 3-4 you do not see the down linemen bend around the edge - they are too busy trying to maintain their gap and push the pocket.  You then have the rest of the DEs who are not going to fool anyone into thinking that they are going to drop into coverage.  It would make more sense to me for them to employ DB blitzes or rush 5 with a LBer than to try to install a ton of 3-4 type of stuff.  FWIW I'm quite biased due to remembering how Buffalo kept trying to switch back and forth in seasons past - it seemed like every offseason they would try to reel fans back in with a super exciting "we're switching to a brand new defense!" line, and each time it was a total shit show.  

[McC]

We don't have the roster or the coordinator for it.

[Au165]

Not running a 3-4 has nothing to do with lack of success for this team. We have had one of the top defenses over the last 6 or so years. Interestingly enough we already do run some 3-4. It is more of a 3-4 over front though so you have the normal linemen up on the line, but we stand up MJ.

[*SHRacerX*]

There is only one change that needs to be made on this defense from a schematic standpoint: Aggression. They began contesting more short routes and shot more gaps in rush defense towards the latter half of the season...In fact, the Bengals averaged just over 15 points per game allowed since the bye, which is good for second in the league.

The conservative, don't give up anything downfield but you can have 6-10 yards all day, defense killed them early in the season. I put that more on the coaching staff than any single player. Williams played better down the stretch as well in what was essentially his rookie season as a starter.

I just want to see the occasional blitz package. Try to FORCE some turnovers instead of hoping for poor play and getting a freebie. That being said, the defense should really work with the jugs machine from time to time...some of the INTs that were dropped should have been caught, easily.

I wish we would also see a more attacking offense. Only ran the TE screen a half dozen times all year, and it was never stopped short of 8 yards. Took a very small number of deep shots, despite seeing in the preseason that Cody Core could get deep. Ran very few reverses. Don't recall a single flea-flicker. The offensive schematic is just so gutless.

[Au165]

(01-05-2017, 09:57 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: There is only one change that needs to be made on this defense from a schematic standpoint:  Aggression.  They began contesting more short routes and shot more gaps in rush defense towards the latter half of the season...In fact, the Bengals averaged just over 15 points per game allowed since the bye, which is good for second in the league.

The conservative, don't give up anything downfield but you can have 6-10 yards all day, defense killed them early in the season.  I put that more on the coaching staff than any single player.  Williams played better down the stretch as well in what was essentially his rookie season as a starter.

The idea of a 2 high defense is to not get beat. It is very effective when you get pressure, or force turnovers. Where we struggled early in the year is we weren't getting any pressure or turnovers. We tried blitzing early on when we struggled and it didn't really do anything but lead to more big plays given up. What made our defense so good in the past, and at the end of the season, is getting pressure form our front four. If anything this reinforces  the need to get Billings healthy and to add another end in the draft, even if he isn't anything but a pass rusher year 1.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-05-2017, 10:06 AM)Au165 Wrote: The idea of a 2 high defense is to not get beat. It is very effective when you get pressure, or force turnovers. Where we struggled early in the year is we weren't getting any pressure or turnovers. We tried blitzing early on when we struggled and it didn't really do anything but lead to more big plays given up. What made our defense so good in the past, and at the end of the season, is getting pressure form our front four. If anything this reinforces  the need to get Billings healthy and to add another end in the draft, even if he isn't anything but a pass rusher year 1.

I understand what a 2 high safety look is and what it is intended to accomplish, but they allowed a rookie QB (Siemian) to torch them underneath and they got one big play.  The Bengals never adjusted.  I only saw a very small number of blitzes and I thought they had a modicum of success.  I just wish, as we so often say, there were more adjustments.  When teams go max protection, this team has no answer or adjustment and it drives me insane.  

[kevin]

OK, but lets say we draft one of the First Round Alabama Crimson Tide Linebackers in Round One. You add THAT player to Burfict, Flowers, Maualuga, Rey, Vigil, Roach.....Starters would be Burfict, Maualuga, The # 1 Draft pick from Alabama, and whoever wins the 4th LB spot. Rey has seen action but Bengals started getting Vigil game time who was not a low draft pick. .....Now even if we stay in a 4-3, we are going to need one of the Alabama Linebackers slated to go first round. ....Bengals went to Super Bowl in 1981 with Hank Bullough 3-4 defense with Dick LeBeau the DB coach. Bengals went to Super Bowl in 1988 with Dick LeBeau 3-4 defense. Our last play-off win was with LeBeau 3-4 defense. Of course he went to Pittsburg and his defenses took them to Super Bowls. ......Either Reuben Foster or Tim Williams would be welcome additions to the Bengals. Not just star LBs at Alabama or the SEC but considered the top in the nation in this draft. Both ranked very high by both CBS and ESPN. .....I hate that we can not even consider a 3-4 because our depth and talent at linebacker is always so weak. Let change that and add some talent. Even if we stay in a 4-3, we need to add Foster or Williams in the draft. We do not have Play-off win linebacker unit.

[Au165]

(01-05-2017, 10:21 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I understand what a 2 high safety look is and what it is intended to accomplish, but they allowed a rookie QB (Siemian) to torch them underneath and they got one big play.  The Bengals never adjusted.  I only saw a very small number of blitzes and I thought they had a modicum of success.  I just wish, as we so often say, there were more adjustments.  When teams go max protection, this team has no answer or adjustment and it drives me insane.  

Like I said when we tried blitzing in the back half of the early season troubles it didn't help. This team has to get pressure from the front 4 to find success. If a team goes max protect then you have 3 guys running routes which should mean you have a +1 blitz on (i.e. guy they were covering stays in so defender comes) or the defense will adjust during the play into a hybrid double coverage.

I think a lot of our early season struggles were guys not seeing the same sight adjustments. There were a large number of times where after a play Burfict or a safety would be yelling at someone about the coverage. Defenses are very complex and have a lot of sight adjustments during the play, the issue arises when one guy makes the adjustment and someone who is supposed to be a part of the adjustment doesn't make it. I think by the end of the year we got that worked out which lead to a lot of the improvements we saw.

[Au165]

(01-05-2017, 10:21 AM)kevin Wrote: OK, but lets say we draft one of the First Round Alabama Crimson Tide Linebackers in Round One.  You add THAT player to Burfict, Flowers, Maualuga, Rey, Vigil, Roach.....Starters would be Burfict, Maualuga, The # 1 Draft pick from Alabama, and whoever wins the 4th LB spot.  Rey has seen action but Bengals started getting Vigil game time who was not a low draft pick. .....Now even if we stay in a 4-3, we are going to need one of the Alabama Linebackers slated to go first round. ....Bengals went to Super Bowl in 1981 with Hank Bullough 3-4 defense with Dick LeBeau the DB coach.  Bengals went to Super Bowl in 1988 with Dick LeBeau 3-4 defense. Our last play-off win was with LeBeau 3-4 defense.  Of course he went to Pittsburg and his defenses took them to Super Bowls. ......Either Reuben Foster or Tim Williams would be welcome additions to the Bengals. Not just star LBs at Alabama or the SEC but considered the top in the nation in this draft.  Both ranked very high by both CBS and ESPN. .....I hate that we can not even consider a 3-4 because our depth and talent at linebacker is always so weak.  Let change that and add some talent. Even if we stay in a 4-3, we need to add Foster or Williams in the draft.  We do not have Play-off win linebacker unit.

You keep acting like since we were once good and did something it magically will make us good today, our defense is already good.Your personnel you propose is all over the place in this post and doesn't even make sense in a 3-4. Williams isn't going to play in a 4-3 at 6'3 250 he is too small to play end and his value is in his pass rushing ability so to use him as a 4-3 LB is misusing what actually makes him a 1st round pick.

[THE PISTONS]

I couldn't think of a roster more ill-equipped to play he 3-4. To start:

1 ) Basically NONE of our LB's can rush the passer.
2 ) Our LB's are all slow except for Vigil.
3 ) Our 2 best pass rushers are defensive lineman in Atkins and Dunlap.
4 ) Atkins would be wasted in a 3-4 as he's likely be moved to DE and forced to occupy blockers.
5 ) Dunlap would likely move to OLB in a 3-4.
6 ) We'd need to add, ATLEAST 3 quality LB's and a massive DT to play the 3-4.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

You willing to fire Paul Guenther and hire someone like one of the Ryan brothers?

[bengals67]

(01-05-2017, 10:21 AM)kevin Wrote: OK, but lets say we draft one of the First Round Alabama Crimson Tide Linebackers in Round One.  You add THAT player to Burfict, Flowers, Maualuga, Rey, Vigil, Roach.....Starters would be Burfict, Maualuga, The # 1 Draft pick from Alabama, and whoever wins the 4th LB spot.  Rey has seen action but Bengals started getting Vigil game time who was not a low draft pick. .....Now even if we stay in a 4-3, we are going to need one of the Alabama Linebackers slated to go first round. ....Bengals went to Super Bowl in 1981 with Hank Bullough 3-4 defense with Dick LeBeau the DB coach.  Bengals went to Super Bowl in 1988 with Dick LeBeau 3-4 defense. Our last play-off win was with LeBeau 3-4 defense.  Of course he went to Pittsburg and his defenses took them to Super Bowls. ......Either Reuben Foster or Tim Williams would be welcome additions to the Bengals. Not just star LBs at Alabama or the SEC but considered the top in the nation in this draft.  Both ranked very high by both CBS and ESPN. .....I hate that we can not even consider a 3-4 because our depth and talent at linebacker is always so weak.  Let change that and add some talent. Even if we stay in a 4-3, we need to add Foster or Williams in the draft.  We do not have Play-off win linebacker unit.

I like the 3-4 but please no more Maualuga. He needs to go and take Bodine with him.

[THE PISTONS]

(01-05-2017, 10:21 AM)kevin Wrote: OK, but lets say we draft one of the First Round Alabama Crimson Tide Linebackers in Round One.  You add THAT player to Burfict, Flowers, Maualuga, Rey, Vigil, Roach.....Starters would be Burfict, Maualuga, The # 1 Draft pick from Alabama, and whoever wins the 4th LB spot.  Rey has seen action but Bengals started getting Vigil game time who was not a low draft pick. .....Now even if we stay in a 4-3, we are going to need one of the Alabama Linebackers slated to go first round. ....Bengals went to Super Bowl in 1981 with Hank Bullough 3-4 defense with Dick LeBeau the DB coach.  Bengals went to Super Bowl in 1988 with Dick LeBeau 3-4 defense. Our last play-off win was with LeBeau 3-4 defense.  Of course he went to Pittsburg and his defenses took them to Super Bowls. ......Either Reuben Foster or Tim Williams would be welcome additions to the Bengals. Not just star LBs at Alabama or the SEC but considered the top in the nation in this draft.  Both ranked very high by both CBS and ESPN. .....I hate that we can not even consider a 3-4 because our depth and talent at linebacker is always so weak.  Let change that and add some talent. Even if we stay in a 4-3, we need to add Foster or Williams in the draft.  We do not have Play-off win linebacker unit.

It doesn't matter...NONE of those guys are good pass rushers.

Are Burfict, Flowers, Maualuga, Rey, Vigil, and Roach better pass rushers than Dunlap and Atkins? 


As soon as you switch to the 3-4, you lose Atkins as a pass rusher and he becomes a blocker occupier.

[Hammerstripes]

Here's the problem with this idea: you don't have any of the pieces that would make this work.

First and probably most important, you have to have a huge nose tackle to clog the middle, we don't have that.

Second, it would take our 2 best pass rushers (Dunlap and Atkins) and put them in spots where they aren't playing to their strengths. Atkins would have to move to 3-4 DE as would Dunlap. I don't like that move for either of them.

Third, we have no outside edge rushers worth a crap for this scheme. You would HAVE to draft Tim Williams out of Bama and probably another one in round 2.

Putting in this scheme would be total rebuild of the defense - which isn't needed. Give me Tim Williams in the draft as a SAM/Edge and you would upgrade this defense tremendously.

[THE PISTONS]

(01-05-2017, 12:26 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Here's the problem with this idea:  you don't have any of the pieces that would make this work.

First and probably most important, you have to have a huge nose tackle to clog the middle, we don't have that.

Second, it would take our 2 best pass rushers (Dunlap and Atkins) and put them in spots where they aren't playing to their strengths.  Atkins would have to move to 3-4 DE as would Dunlap.  I don't like that move for either of them.

Third, we have no outside edge rushers worth a crap for this scheme.  You would HAVE to draft Tim Williams out of Bama and probably another one in round 2.

Putting in this scheme would be total rebuild of the defense - which isn't needed.  Give me Tim Williams in the draft as a SAM/Edge and you would upgrade this defense tremendously.

Yep. I actually would struggle to find a team that's personnel was a worse fit for a 3-4 than ours.

[Interceptor]

We would need an NT like Krumrie.

[Socal Bengals fan]

Out of the front 7 only Burfict could make the move to the 3 4 defense. We definitely don't have the people to make the move. Not even close.

[bengalsturntup926]

The 3-4 looks more complicated for a offense to figure out just by me watching on tv, you don't know who is coming. I Luke the 3-4 but I don't think Marvin likes it, hasn't he always ran 4-3?

[THE PISTONS]

(01-05-2017, 01:41 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: The 3-4 looks more complicated for a offense to figure out just by me watching on tv, you don't know who is coming.  I Luke the 3-4 but I don't think Marvin likes it, hasn't he always ran 4-3?

Essentially you just have 1 more LB in the 3-4. The defensive lineman's job is to keep the offensive lineman off of the LB's to free them to make tackles.

Supposedly, if the Bengals were able to draft Manny Lawson when Marvin got here...they were going to switch to a 3-4. Lawson signed here many years later then and we didn't switch to a 3-4. We also had Atkins and Dunlap at that point.

Teams like the Steelers also draft LB's about every other year in the 1st Round also. The Bengals seem against taking LB's in the 1st Round.