Mike Williams

[Jpoore]

(01-11-2017, 11:15 AM)BengalChris Wrote: By having a sieve for an OL.

Again I will bring up giants with playmakers u can cover up oline play

[Au165]

(01-11-2017, 03:23 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Again I will bring up giants with playmakers u can cover up oline play

I point to one of the worst rushing attacks in the league because of that line making them one dimensional and unable to score more than 20 points in their last six games.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-11-2017, 03:23 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Again I will bring up giants with playmakers u can cover up oline play

Here's a thought...what if instead of Mike Williams at 9, the Bengals take playmaker Dede Westbrook at 41?
If the point is the get the ball into a playmaker's hands and the team has a problem protecting Dalton longer than a few seconds, Westbrook may be faster at getting separation. He's definitely more of a big play threat with his speed and agility. The knocks on Westbrook are his size and two domestic violence charges from the mother of his two children from back in 2012 and 2013 (dropped), and those could definitely be what keeps him out of the first round. Some have compared Westbrook skill wise to Will Fuller coming out of Notre Dame last year, and we know the Bengals were reportedly high on Fuller entering last year's draft.

I would imagine though that if Westbrook were taken at 41, Elflein and McMillan wouldn't be available for the Bengals' pick in the third round, and we know you greatly prefer both of those players.

[Hammerstripes]

(01-11-2017, 04:02 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Here's a thought...what if instead of Mike Williams at 9, the Bengals take playmaker Dede Westbrook at 41?
If the point is the get the ball into a playmaker's hands and the team has a problem protecting Dalton longer than a few seconds, Westbrook may be faster at getting separation. He's definitely more of a big play threat with his speed and agility. The knocks on Westbrook are his size and two domestic violence charges from the mother of his two children from back in 2012 and 2013 (dropped), and those could definitely be what keeps him out of the first round. Some have compared Westbrook skill wise to Will Fuller coming out of Notre Dame last year, and we know the Bengals were reportedly high on Fuller entering last year's draft.

I would imagine though that if Westbrook were taken at 41, Elflein and McMillan wouldn't be available for the Bengals' pick in the third round, and we know you greatly prefer both of those players.

Dede Westbrook is a completely different WR than Williams.  Williams is a legit #1 type, Westbrook is a slot guy with very frail size.

I don't see Westbrook as a very good fit here with our current guys.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-11-2017, 05:53 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Dede Westbrook is a completely different WR than Williams.  Williams is a legit #1 type, Westbrook is a slot guy with very frail size.

I don't see Westbrook as a very good fit here with our current guys.

I never said Westbrook was the same type of WR. Westbrook is definitely suited for the slot, but he can also play outside occasionally and be a deep threat, similar to John Brown of the Cardinals. What this team needs, ultimately, is a receiver with speed. The team was reportedly keyed in on Will Fuller last year, and likely would have taken him if he would have been available. Was he a legit #1 type? No. He was a smaller receiver that could take the top off a defense.

While I like Williams, I don't this WR class is particularly full of top-tier talent. Williams himself is more of a possession receiver that can win contested catches and be a red zone threat. He's not really a deep threat that will take the top off a defense. If a WR is going to be drafted in the top 10, I think they need to be a complete WR with good speed.
Someone mentioned Keenan Allen comparison, and I can see that as a valid comparison. However, remember that Keenan Allen was drafted as a third rounder and projected as a late first or early second round pick.

While everyone WANTS to have a WR that can become that top receiver if the WR1 goes down, the reality is it never really happens.

I don't think Williams would be a bad pick, but I think there are other options in the second round and later that can also help improve this receiving corps both in the short and long term.
If Williams can run a 4.4 at the combine though, then he would prove me wrong and I would think he's a complete WR with speed and this team should scoop him up. Otherwise, I'd like to see this team go with a different position.

[BengalChris]

(01-11-2017, 03:23 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Again I will bring up giants with playmakers u can cover up oline play

(01-11-2017, 03:46 PM)Au165 Wrote: I point to one of the worst rushing attacks in the league because of that line making them one dimensional and unable to score more than 20 points in their last six games.

There's no way to cover up the poor run blocking with a receiver. Defenses seem to know exactly when we're going to the run the ball and they're in the backfield so much they could have lunch there and build a camp fire and wine and dine their wives.

Not against taking a top flight dominate WR with the 9th pick, but we are going to need to do something about the OL. Oggieboggie boy was rated at the bottom of the league and he was given every opportunity to work through his troubles.

[Jpoore]

(01-11-2017, 04:02 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Here's a thought...what if instead of Mike Williams at 9, the Bengals take playmaker Dede Westbrook at 41?
If the point is the get the ball into a playmaker's hands and the team has a problem protecting Dalton longer than a few seconds, Westbrook may be faster at getting separation. He's definitely more of a big play threat with his speed and agility. The knocks on Westbrook are his size and two domestic violence charges from the mother of his two children from back in 2012 and 2013 (dropped), and those could definitely be what keeps him out of the first round. Some have compared Westbrook skill wise to Will Fuller coming out of Notre Dame last year, and we know the Bengals were reportedly high on Fuller entering last year's draft.

I would imagine though that if Westbrook were taken at 41, Elflein and McMillan wouldn't be available for the Bengals' pick in the third round, and we know you greatly prefer both of those players.

I just never liked Westbrook. His size is not good and he strikes me as a slot receiver nothing more and we have that. And while I like McMillan I actually like Walker as my top pick for round 2 followed by elflien bc the center in the focal point of the oline To Help pick up blitzes stunts etc. And a good center would go a long way towards fixing that. That said I love Walker he has ability to be absolutely elite.

(01-11-2017, 06:31 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I never said Westbrook was the same type of WR. Westbrook is definitely suited for the slot, but he can also play outside occasionally and be a deep threat, similar to John Brown of the Cardinals. What this team needs, ultimately, is a receiver with speed. The team was reportedly keyed in on Will Fuller last year, and likely would have taken him if he would have been available. Was he a legit #1 type? No. He was a smaller receiver that could take the top off a defense.

While I like Williams, I don't this WR class is particularly full of top-tier talent. Williams himself is more of a possession receiver that can win contested catches and be a red zone threat. He's not really a deep threat that will take the top off a defense. If a WR is going to be drafted in the top 10, I think they need to be a complete WR with good speed.
Someone mentioned Keenan Allen comparison, and I can see that as a valid comparison. However, remember that Keenan Allen was drafted as a third rounder and projected as a late first or early second round pick.

While everyone WANTS to have a WR that can become that top receiver if the WR1 goes down, the reality is it never really happens.

I don't think Williams would be a bad pick, but I think there are other options in the second round and later that can also help improve this receiving corps both in the short and long term.
If Williams can run a 4.4 at the combine though, then he would prove me wrong and I would think he's a complete WR with speed and this team should scoop him up. Otherwise, I'd like to see this team go with a different position.

I saw that allen comparison in draftekk scouting report for Williams. I think here are 2 top tier wrs in this draft Williams and Davis. After that there's a huge drop-off to the John Ross and Juju Schuster and Westbrook's of the draft. As far as his speed williams is predicted to run a 4.48. While that's not elite speed it's great speed for a big wr who fits his frame extremely well. From what I have read he's elite at getting late separation. As in when the balls in the air he gets the most separation there. I think he's our future number 1 if we get him. My problem is if we don't go Williams I think we go Barnett which is a mistake imo bc I don't think Barnett at 9 is much if any better than Walker at 41.

[Jpoore]

(01-11-2017, 08:42 PM)BengalChris Wrote: There's no way to cover up the poor run blocking with a receiver. Defenses seem to know exactly when we're going to the run the ball and they're in the backfield so much they could have lunch there and build a camp fire and wine and dine their wives.

Not against taking a top flight dominate WR with the 9th pick, but we are going to need to do something about the OL. Oggieboggie boy was rated at the bottom of the league and he was given every opportunity to work through his troubles.

Run blocking ur right it's why elflien is my second option for our second round draft pick. A run blocking attacking center. I did see a nice article about ogbuehi today about after Texans game he was much more confident and while he gave up 2 sacks every other time the rusher was nowhere near the qb. He walked right into Marvin's office on Tuesday and said I'm gonna be a great tackle in this league. We will see. I did think he played a lot better at lt at end of season.

[BengalChris]

(01-11-2017, 08:52 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Run blocking ur right it's why elflien is my second option for our second round draft pick. A run blocking attacking center. I did see a nice article about ogbuehi today about after Texans game he was much more confident and while he gave up 2 sacks every other time the rusher was nowhere near the qb. He walked right into Marvin's office on Tuesday and said I'm gonna be a great tackle in this league. We will see. I did think he played a lot better at lt at end of season.

Maybe Og will improve, maybe he won't. He ended the year on IR with a shoulder injury and no one is saying how serious it is or if it will require surgery.

Can't really gamble on Og turning it around. It would be just a gamble.

Elflien would be an upgrade and he played OG at a very high level before 1 year at Center. He could be used anywhere in the interior.

[Jpoore]

(01-11-2017, 09:18 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Maybe Og will improve, maybe he won't. He ended the year on IR with a shoulder injury and no one is saying how serious it is or if it will require surgery.

Can't really gamble on Og turning it around. It would be just a gamble.

Elflien would be an upgrade and he played OG at a very high level before 1 year at Center. He could be used anywhere in the interior.

Torn rotator cuff but I would think he's be ready for camp. And exactly on elflien.3 time all American. 2 different spots.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(01-11-2017, 08:52 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Run blocking ur right it's why elflien is my second option for our second round draft pick. A run blocking attacking center. I did see a nice article about ogbuehi today about after Texans game he was much more confident and while he gave up 2 sacks every other time the rusher was nowhere near the qb. He walked right into Marvin's office on Tuesday and said I'm gonna be a great tackle in this league. We will see. I did think he played a lot better at lt at end of season.

He said he felt 1000 times more comfortable at LT than RT. Then prompt gave up two sacks in his start at LT followed by being placed on IR  I believe he gave up the most QB pressures in the league. I can't imagine how Alexander fixes that in one offseason.

If Andy doesn't have time to throw, the WRs don't have time to get open. Unless Williams runs a quick slant over and over. The Bengals have trouble with that against 3-4 defenses. 

[BengalChris]

(01-11-2017, 09:29 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Torn rotator cuff but I would think he's be ready for camp. And exactly on elflien.3 time all American. 2 different spots.

As weak as Og's punch was this year, that torn rotator cuff sure is going to cut into his working out. I'm just not sold that guy will be able to start in 2017. At least not a level we need.

What I do know about the draft is that whatever people's current views of the players are, they'll have different views come draft time. Some will have improved stock and others will fall. There's also a good chance that over drafted QBs will push down some better players and this could work to our advantage sitting there in the 9 spot.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(01-11-2017, 09:29 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Torn rotator cuff but I would think he's be ready for camp. And exactly on elflien.3 time all American. 2 different spots.

1. Where did you see that?

2. Those injury reports can't be trusted. Dennard's shoulder injury was reported to be a dislocation by one source and a seperation by another source. Those are two completely different injuries involving different joints with different treatments usually and different prognoses. If the labrum needs repaired that's an additional 6 weeks in a sling and a full year before the shoulder is back to where it was before surgery. 

3. In your experience, what makes you believe he will be ready for camp?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

Never mind. I found where Hobson reported a partial rotator cuff tear. Also reported they don't know if it will require surgery. Usually partial RC tears don't require surgery.

Last year, Hobso reported Eifert had and ankle sprain which wasn't expected to need surgery. But, when he did need surgery that's when I knew he had a grade III ankle sprain. Yes, it is a sprain, but a grade III sprain means the ligament has been completely torn from the bone. Usually it's the anterior talofibular ligament which tears first. Usually, it is treated with immobilization in a walking boot and about three months of rest followed by PT. Keyword: usually.

Point being if Ogbuehi has shoulder surgery within the next 6 weeks, it ain't no partial tear. If he has surgery after 6 weeks it was most likely more serious but they thought it had a good chance of healing without surgery, but you never can tell for certain like Eifert's ankle injury.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

http://m.bengals.com/news/article-1/Eifert-hopeful-after-initial-test/924ce90d-1bdb-467a-83cc-9883b79a609d

Oops, I stand corrected. The dreaded "bone bruise" strikes again!  What a crock of shit. I don't know which is worse; the team feeding Hobson bullshit or Hobson reporting bullshit. Although, Hobson doesn't have the training he does have experience with Braham's bullshit bone bruise. He should know better.

[Jpoore]

(01-11-2017, 09:40 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: 1. Where did you see that?

2. Those injury reports can't be trusted. Dennard's shoulder injury was reported to be a dislocation by one source and a seperation by another source. Those are two completely different injuries involving different joints with different treatments usually and different prognoses. If the labrum needs repaired that's an additional 6 weeks in a sling and a full year before the shoulder is back to where it was before surgery. 

3. In your experience, what makes you believe he will be ready for camp?

I have no experience to confirm that. Especially with our doctors not knowing just an assumption. Heres the article I was talking about. http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2017/01/11/cincinnati-bengals-offensive-tackle-cedric-ogbuehi-2016-review/96445974/

[BengalChris]

(01-11-2017, 10:05 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: http://m.bengals.com/news/article-1/Eifert-hopeful-after-initial-test/924ce90d-1bdb-467a-83cc-9883b79a609d

Oops, I stand corrected. The dreaded "bone bruise" strikes again!  What a crock of shit. I don't know which is worse; the team feeding Hobson bullshit or Hobson reporting bullshit. Although, Hobson doesn't have the training he does have experience with Braham's bullshit bone bruise. He should know better.

He isn't called Hobspin by accident.

Conflicting reports means we don't know what is really going on. I hope the team does, but given the history of Marvin Jones and Eifert and we are better off not believing anything.

[Whatever]

(01-11-2017, 09:37 PM)BengalChris Wrote: As weak as Og's punch was this year, that torn rotator cuff sure is going to cut into his working out. I'm just not sold that guy will be able to start in 2017. At least not a level we need.

What I do know about the draft is that whatever people's current views of the players are, they'll have different views come draft time. Some will have improved stock and others will fall. There's also a good chance that over drafted QBs will push down some better players and this could work to our advantage sitting there in the 9 spot.

As problematic as RT has been this year, I just don't see the Bengals giving up on both a 1st and 2nd round pick this soon.  Most likely, they will bring in a veteran FA for depth and to compete for that spot.  Andre Smith may be an option.  He knows the guys and the system and should be relatively cheap.  He's had his ups and downs here, but at his worst, he was at least a serviceable starter.

This is a poor T class.  Cam Robinson isn't one of the 10 best players, but LT is a position teams reach for, so he could easily be gone by our pick, although he may be better suited to play RT.  Unless you're going to reach and roll the dice on Ryan Ramcyk, I just don't know that there will be a reasonable OL selection in the 1st.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(01-11-2017, 10:10 PM)Jpoore Wrote: I have no experience to confirm that. Especially with our doctors not knowing just an assumption. Heres the article I was talking about. http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2017/01/11/cincinnati-bengals-offensive-tackle-cedric-ogbuehi-2016-review/96445974/

Let me explain some things because this is a perfect example of how unrealistic fan expectations take hold. 

1. Hobson reported the injury, not the doctors. So we really don't know what the doctor said regarding diagnosis, treatment, or prognosis. We don't really know if it is a partial tear of the RC or not. Which means we can't judge when he might return. 

2.  Look at Hobson's track record with bone bruises. He is just reporting what he is told, but what he is being told isn't correct. Braham had a tibial plateau fracture, not a bone bruise. Braham is on recorded stating Lewis knew Braham had a fracture, but he wasn't technically lying when he called it a bruise because Braham's leg was bruised from the fracture. Sorry, Richie, but Lewis deliberately lied to the media. 

3. Studies show patients immediately forget between 40-80% of what they are told by their doctor and half of what they do remember is incorrect. Meaning, at most, 10-30% of what the remember is correct while 10-30% is just flat out wrong.  Then the player or the coach has to communicate that to the media. This is probably why Dennard told one reporter he had a seperated shoulder and another he had a shoulder dislocation. Many people don't know those are very different injuries, although though sound similar. 

4. Did you watch the Hard Knocks seasons which featured the Bengals?  Did you see the one AJ injured his knee which was reported as a sprain. There is a scene where Marvin and Hugh are discussing AJ's injury. Marvin starts out calling it a "sprain" and by the end of the conversations says he is glad it is only a "contusion." I remember watching that and thinking, "Great. Lewis doesn't even know the difference between a sprain and a contusion." That's another part of the problem. 

So basically we don't really know what the injury is or when he should be back. But, you've already stated it is a torn rotator cuff and he will be back by camp because that is what Hobson reported. Now, if Ogbuehi isn't ready by camp it will be the doctors fault. But, really it is just bad communication. Just like what happened with Braham and Eifert. 

[Jpoore]

(01-11-2017, 11:21 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Let me explain some things because this is a perfect example of how unrealistic fan expectations take hold. 

1. Hobson reported the injury, not the doctors. So we really don't know what the doctor said regarding diagnosis, treatment, or prognosis. We don't really know if it is a partial tear of the RC or not. Which means we can't judge when he might return. 

2.  Look at Hobson's track record with bone bruises. He is just reporting what he is told, but what he is being told isn't correct. Braham had a tibial plateau fracture, not a bone bruise. Braham is on recorded stating Lewis knew Braham had a fracture, but he wasn't technically lying when he called it a bruise because Braham's leg was bruised from the fracture. Sorry, Richie, but Lewis deliberately lied to the media. 

3. Studies show patients immediately forget between 40-80% of what they are told by their doctor and half of what they do remember is incorrect. Meaning, at most, 10-30% of what the remember is correct while 10-30% is just flat out wrong.  Then the player or the coach has to communicate that to the media. This is probably why Dennard told one reporter he had a seperated shoulder and another he had a shoulder dislocation. Many people don't know those are very different injuries, although though sound similar. 

4. Did you watch the Hard Knocks seasons which featured the Bengals?  Did you see the one AJ injured his knee which was reported as a sprain. There is a scene where Marvin and Hugh are discussing AJ's injury. Marvin starts out calling it a "sprain" and by the end of the conversations says he is glad it is only a "contusion." I remember watching that and thinking, "Great. Lewis doesn't even know the difference between a sprain and a contusion." That's another part of the problem. 

So basically we don't really know what the injury is or when he should be back. But, you've already stated it is a torn rotator cuff and he will be back by camp because that is what Hobson reported. Now, if Ogbuehi isn't ready by camp it will be the doctors fault. But, really it is just bad communication. Just like what happened with Braham and Eifert. 

I guess I was just assuming he would be back.  Wish they were more transparent about injuries and such.