Best way for us to win next year-fix the running game

[SunsetBengal]

(01-16-2017, 01:09 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Agreed. Either way, if we go RB at #9, Gio and especially Hill will become afterthoughts. Ok, maybe "afterthought" is strong for Gio, but it'd be far from an even split. You only draft a RB that high if he's going to be the starter and a huge part of the offense.  300+ touches.

Well, Gio is under contract through 2019 at a little over $5M per.  Having a star quality player under wraps for 5M, and taking a RB at the #9 slot isn't a terrible financial deal, as the #9 from this years draft was a 15M deal.  Rookie deals are for 5 year?  So, having 8M per, tied up in a potentially great backfield duo isn't all that frivolous.

[Plainogridiron]

(01-15-2017, 02:47 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I'll openly say that I am not the best at talent evaluation. I'm not a future scout like some people on this message board (not the OP, but people like Bfine and Wolf). 

It's so hard to determine when a good stat line in college is due to transcendent talent of the player, the talent level of the players around them (a big problem when evaluating Alabama players) or talent level of the players they are playing against.

I recently went back and watched a video of Jeremy Hill's best plays in college and he had a lot of punishing runs and break away runs that look very similar to Fournette's highlights today. Even looking at the stats, Jeremy Hill averaged 6.9 ypc in his sophomore year and Fournette has a 6.2 ypc career average (6.5 in his best year).

Now, I say highlights because this early on, I don't generally look at the play by plays for every game of most prospects, so I am only doing a top down look at these guys. So maybe, aside from the highlights, Fournette has more quality non-highlight snaps that make him a superior prospect to Jeremy, but they don't look all that different from a high level.

Dalvin Cook, I agree, is the better prospect between the two, but I don't know if he qualifies as a once every 5 year talent. That kind of evaluation I leave to the professionals. If he is truly a unique talent that will transform our offense, I would be fine with the pick. 

And your point about Rex is a good one. He came in and suddenly our running game is much better. That speaks very poorly of Jeremy. And I think he needs to be replaced anyway.

But Rex isn't a top 10 pick. If we can get a guy in the 3rd or 4th round that could replicate his kind of production in his limited play time, I think that would fix our running game as well, don't you think?

I think all the evidence has shown we have severly underestimated Rex Burkhead. At 215 he has elite, yes elite explosion and quickness.  It shows in college, combine and when given a chance in the NFL. The knock on him was his long speed at the draft, but Mike Mayock pointed out his 40 film and it showed he had two horrible starts, jumping outside and running outside the left line both times. At his pro day he ran 4.5s and a low 4.6 and I have personally seen this guy play and dunk a basketball, and he is really crazy athletic.

The other thing with Burkhead is if used properly he is in rare company for a running back who can be utilized as a slot receiver, not alot of guys doing what he can transitioning out to that spot.

He is in some elite company when you crunch down his 3rd down percentage conversation rate.  Then you have to add in his work ethic and mentality and you might have something special.  With all that said, I don't believe it will manifest in Cincy, but he is special like Harbaugh said.

[Buckeyes420]

(01-18-2017, 05:33 AM)Plainogridiron Wrote: I think all the evidence has shown we have severly underestimated Rex Burkhead. At 215 he has elite, yes elite explosion and quickness.  It shows in college, combine and when given a chance in the NFL. The knock on him was his long speed at the draft, but Mike Mayock pointed out his 40 film and it showed he had two horrible starts, jumping outside and running outside the left line both times. At his pro day he ran 4.5s and a low 4.6 and I have personally seen this guy play and dunk a basketball, and he is really crazy athletic.

The other thing with Burkhead is if used properly he is in rare company for a running back who can be utilized as a slot receiver, not alot of guys doing what he can transitioning out to that spot.

He is in some elite company when you crunch down his 3rd down percentage conversation rate.  Then you have to add in his work ethic and mentality and you might have something special.  With all that said, I don't believe it will manifest in Cincy, but he is special like Harbaugh said.

Sadly i feel the same way.He is gonna be really good for someone else in the vein of Justin Smith,We will have to sit back and watch  him succeed meanwhile we stick with hill as our starter.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-12-2017, 02:35 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: So no likie Big Whit & Dre K 

IMO if a star WR is there vs Cook, WR is the bigger need. Boyd is your possession WR, and you got nobody behind him to take the top off. You have your "out of the backfield" threat with Gio, so Cook would sit behind him. Mike Williams would pretty much start day one, especially if they don't resign Lafell. 

The Bengals are extremely one-dimensional when AJ's out. i don't have the exact stats ( I can dig those up shortly), but they are borderline awful when he doesn't play. 

Ha!  I shoulda said guys at the RB position.

No way man, Cook would easily supplant Gio.  Gio is talented, but not as good of a player as Dalvin Cook is.  

[Buckeyes420]

(01-18-2017, 10:19 AM)Wyche Wrote: Ha!  I shoulda said guys at the RB position.

No way man, Cook would easily supplant Gio.  Gio is talented, but not as good of a player as Dalvin Cook is.  

Cook would start over a healthy Gio ,Let alone a Gio with a shredded knee.Cook is a monster.He reminds me of jamaal charles with more power

[BengalFanInNJ]

(01-15-2017, 02:53 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Good post CJD, i understand what you are saying.

Dalvin Cook to me is the exception, he ran behind a bad O-line at Florida State and still was great.

Him and John Toth would fix our biggest weakness, the running game.

I think Tyler Orlovsky from West Virginia would be a great Center to grab in the 3rd round. He's nasty. I admit that I don't know much about Toth though.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-13-2017, 08:23 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If you want to see how he will look in the pros, with an "average" OL, just watch his games against 'Bama..

True dat....Cook has played behind some suspect lines at FSU for the better part of three years.  I'm not saying to pick Dalvin at #9 no matter what, I'm simply suggesting that if you go RB, I think he's the best all purpose guy in the draft.


That said, I'm not sure our line is even average.

[Hoofhearted]

(01-18-2017, 10:19 AM)Wyche Wrote: Ha!  I shoulda said guys at the RB position.

No way man, Cook would easily supplant Gio.  Gio is talented, but not as good of a player as Dalvin Cook is.  

Who is the head coach again? 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-15-2017, 03:36 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I was in Vegas for an annual meeting all last week.  I was looking for something for my 13 year old son (He was 11 in my Avatar, and now looks me in the eye).  It isn't as easy as it used to be....some simple lego, toy, shirt...just a little guilt gift for me being gone.  He is a swimmer and baseball player (like his dad...once Herbstreit hit puberty, it was over for me in football) and I will find a baseball shirt or something, but the gifts in the Vegas shops all bordered on too childish or too inappropriate.  

To the latter, there was a shirt with a chicken and an egg, in bed, smoking a cigarette...the chicken has turned to the egg and says:  "I think it was you".  I didn't buy it, but got a good chuckle.  

My point of this long-winded story?  Which came first, the chicken of the egg, or in this case, the RB or the offensive line.  You are dead on that another version of Rex is probably available in the later (3rd?) rounds vs. taking a RB with a top 10 pick.  There are so many positions where the player looks unstoppable against their college competition, but then against NFL talent, they bust.  RB seems to me to be a position where a rookie can not only make an immediate impact but if you are running through tackles, running away from NFL-speed players, and catching balls on NFL-style routes that you have a pretty good chance of success in the NFL.

I keep going back and forth on how much I like the DE class and how the Bengals can have an impact RDE for the first time in a while.   I have long said it is the missing piece of the puzzle on the front four.  A speed merchant that can get around a LT and force the QB in to the arms of a closing Dunalp and Geno.  And as badly as I want that for the defense, I keep coming back to the thought that this team needs to be able to score more points, in a number of different ways.  Atlanta put up 36 on a strong Seattle defense.  Atlanta's defense isn't that strong, but you can't score if you don't have the ball.  The Patriots had their issues with ball security early, but in the end, they put up 34 points on the Texans.

The reference I made about RDE being the missing piece on the front four is how I also feel about a stud RB on the offense.  They have the WRs, TEs, but not that special Pro Bowl talent at RB.  Dalvin Cook absolutely tore through a tough Michigan line....and ran away from some NFL talent, despite not having the offensive line of some of the better teams in college football.  

Fournette may be a very good NFL player as well, but I worry about mileage and it also falls back in to the old "this guy is in so it is a run, this guy is in so it is a pass" habit.  I want Cook, Gio, and Sexy to be a three-headed rotational monster that you can't predict plays by formation or personnel.  Throw to the RB on first down, run with another on second down...no predictability.  

You said "fix our running game", and I took that as "not make it suck"    I know you were probably thinking of a loftier goal, but I want a running game like Atlanta to pair with our other weapons.  I think Cook could have the same impact here that Freeman has had in Atlanta...and I now think the Falcons will represent the NFC in the Super Bowl.  

I wanted Freeman in that draft, and I think Cook is better than him.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-18-2017, 10:26 AM)Buckeyes420 Wrote: Cook would start over a healthy Gio ,Let alone a Gio with a shredded knee.Cook is a monster.He reminds me of jamaal charles with more power

Yes, I agree.  Anytime a back like that can also make over the shoulder catches 40 yards downfield, and he's still on the board, you draft him.

(01-18-2017, 11:14 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Who is the head coach again? 

Duly noted.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-18-2017, 05:33 AM)Plainogridiron Wrote: I think all the evidence has shown we have severly underestimated Rex Burkhead. At 215 he has elite, yes elite explosion and quickness.  It shows in college, combine and when given a chance in the NFL. The knock on him was his long speed at the draft, but Mike Mayock pointed out his 40 film and it showed he had two horrible starts, jumping outside and running outside the left line both times. At his pro day he ran 4.5s and a low 4.6 and I have personally seen this guy play and dunk a basketball, and he is really crazy athletic.

The other thing with Burkhead is if used properly he is in rare company for a running back who can be utilized as a slot receiver, not alot of guys doing what he can transitioning out to that spot.

He is in some elite company when you crunch down his 3rd down percentage conversation rate.  Then you have to add in his work ethic and mentality and you might have something special.  With all that said, I don't believe it will manifest in Cincy, but he is special like Harbaugh said.

Great first post man, welcome to the boards.

Sure hope you are wrong though and Burkhead's great play manifests in Cincy.

Didn't know that about Rex having poor starts on his forty's at the combine. Thanks for the info.

(01-18-2017, 10:37 AM)BengalFanInNJ Wrote: I think Tyler Orlovsky from West Virginia would be a great Center to grab in the 3rd round. He's nasty. I admit that I don't know much about Toth though.

Sweet, i have heard the same about Toth, i want a nasty Center. Orlovsky is now on my radar.

[Buckeyes420]

(01-18-2017, 10:49 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Great first post man, welcome to the boards.

Sure hope you are wrong though and Burkhead's great play manifests in Cincy.

Didn't know that about Rex having poor starts on his forty's at the combine. Thanks for the info.


Sweet, i have heard the same about Toth, i want a nasty Center. Orlovsky is now on my radar.

Im starting to like the idea of getting Cook at 9 and Toth in the 3rd or 4th.getting a gamebreaker rb and a better center would make our line seem alot better than it really is.Cook makes plays even with crappy blocking.His burst is what i notice the most,our line man only need to hold blocks for a few seconds,where as with hill they need to pancake block to get yardage.Theres alot that can change between now and the draft but i hope it plays out this way....would also like fournette but would prefer cook if they are both available

[SunsetBengal]

(01-22-2017, 01:23 PM)Buckeyes420 Wrote: Im starting to like the idea of getting Cook at 9 and Toth in the 3rd or 4th.getting a gamebreaker rb and a better center would make our line seem alot better than it really is.Cook makes plays even with crappy blocking.His burst is what i notice the most,our line man only need to hold blocks for a few seconds,where as with hill they need to pancake block to get yardage.Theres alot that can change between now and the draft but i hope it plays out this way....would also like fournette but would prefer cook if they are both available

Getting a better run blocking Center would do much more than make the OL seem better, it would make the OL actually better than it currently is.

[Buckeyes420]

(01-22-2017, 01:33 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Getting a better run blocking Center would do much more than make the OL seem better, it would make the OL actually better than it currently is

Cook would make our line better himself

[Plainogridiron]

(01-18-2017, 10:49 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Great first post man, welcome to the boards.

Sure hope you are wrong though and Burkhead's great play manifests in Cincy.

Didn't know that about Rex having poor starts on his forty's at the combine. Thanks for the info.


Sweet, i have heard the same about Toth, i want a nasty Center. Orlovsky is now on my radar.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-combine/0ap2000000152185/2013-Combine-workout-Rex-Burkhead

Watch the start, Burkhead did this on both, ended up running outside the left hash. If you ever were a track guy, getting offline this muck will cost you a 10th or more. Fortunately for Burkhead, he fixed this at his pro day.

[3wt]

(01-22-2017, 03:00 PM)Plainogridiron Wrote: http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-combine/0ap2000000152185/2013-Combine-workout-Rex-Burkhead

Watch the start, Burkhead did this on both, ended up running outside the left hash. If you ever were a track guy, getting offline this muck will cost you a 10th or more. Fortunately for Burkhead, he fixed this at his pro day.

Didn't help Burkhead too much.  He lasted till the sixth round.  

What really bugs me was how little opp the Bengals gave him to show what he could do in games, and how much he p showed in practice.  

Somebody or everybody was asleep at the wheel.  Very disconcerting

[*ochocincos*]

I think Center is becoming more important to a successful offense than RT, which can be supported by the fact average good RT salary is ~$6 mill and average good C salary is ~$7-8 mill. Plus, I have more faith in Fisher at RT than Bodine at C. Upgrade C and you'll see the Bengals greatly improve in both the run and pass game.

[BoomerFan]

(01-16-2017, 03:48 AM)BoomerFan Wrote: My solution:

1. Fire Ken Zampese

2. Hire Dallas Offensive Live coach Frank Pollack as our new OC

3. Actually spend money and draft picks making our line good


That will fix the running game. Oh and maybe tell Hill to run where people aren't as opposed to acting like the defense will be confused if you run right into their waiting arms.

Hiring Frank Pollack as our OLine coach is also an acceptable route. Heck it is the better option, I just didn't think he'd be available for a lateral move back in January of last year when I posted this. Glad to know the FO and I have similar thinking. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-11-2018, 07:22 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: Hiring Frank Pollack as our OLine coach is also an acceptable route. Heck it is the better option, I just didn't think he'd be available for a lateral move back in January of last year when I posted this. Glad to know the FO and I have similar thinking. 

Wow, amazing you remembered this thread BoomerFan. Great call but you are right this is even better cause now we
don't have PA sabotaging us. Couldn't of gotten a better O-line coach to help us get our running game going next year...

Gio and Mixon should be salivating after last season.

[sandwedge]

HaHaHA, I didn't look at the date on the first post.... I was thinking, who the hell is this idiot wanting to take a RB in RD1.....