The double standard....

[spazz70]

DreK...injured first year...played in a few games
2nd year....played 13 games...4 starts
3rd year....played 16 games...2 starts
4th year...played 16 games...15 starts

Coaches lambasted to as why he is not on the field being a first round draft pick...remember hearing people saying the needs to be on the field...tired of the coaches taking 1st round picks and not playing them because of the veterans....taking too long to develop these young players

CedO....injured in college...got a bit of playing time year 1
Year 2...Inserted at RT from day one....

Now the coaches started him too early...he was not ready because of this injury....he needed to learn behind the veterans before he got the job.....they should have pulled him because he stunk it up....


SO, which is it? Do you start a 1st round pick and give him a chance like they did with Ced? Or do you bring them along slowly and let them learn the game like DreK?

Obviously in this scenario DreK has benefited.

[Benton]

kind of hard to compare the positions. CB (and wr, rb, safety) are positions where, mostly, you are responsible for you and your progression. If a corner on the other side of the field takes a play off, at worst, you're stuck covering an extra guy if you're playing zone. A wr, if he doesn't work on improving his ability to pull the ball in, that doesn't make it impossible for other receivers to catch.

for oogie boogie, a line is only as good as the weakest link. And there's a lot of communication/cooperation. That comes from on the field play to a degree, but at the same time you can't have a really crappy line because you're playing a rookie. So he needs.some playing time, but as Jim o mentioned a while back, fixing oogie's mistakes will mostly come in the off season when coaches can sit down with him and say "here's what you're doing wrong, here's what you're doing right." 

[Sabretooth]

Why can't it be a combination depending on the
1. players health
2.coaches ability to select and develop talented players
3. needs of the team
4.players' rate of advancement in a pro NFL environment

[spazz70]

(01-13-2017, 11:38 AM)Sabretooth Wrote: Why can't it be a combination depending on the
1. players health
2.coaches ability to select and develop  talented players
3. needs of the team
4.players' rate of advancement in a pro NFL environment

I agree but it seems to not be or the coaches had a change of heart with Ced this year...

[spazz70]

(01-13-2017, 11:33 AM)Benton Wrote: kind of hard to compare the positions. CB (and wr, rb, safety) are positions where, mostly, you are responsible for you and your progression. If a corner on the other side of the field takes a play off, at worst, you're stuck covering an extra guy if you're playing zone. A wr, if he doesn't work on improving his ability to pull the ball in, that doesn't make it impossible for other receivers to catch.

for oogie boogie, a line is only as good as the weakest link. And there's a lot of communication/cooperation. That comes from on the field play to a degree, but at the same time you can't have a really crappy line because you're playing a rookie. So he needs.some playing time, but as Jim o mentioned a while back, fixing oogie's mistakes will mostly come in the off season when coaches can sit down with him and say "here's what you're doing wrong, here's what you're doing right." 

Yes, I understand that concept and agree.  The thing is the guy was 1st round pick and won the job in training camp...Would liked to have seen or heard what made him the winner.  I do not think that Ced or Fisher are built to be RTs in the NFL...I do not believe either have the correct bulk for that side or at least bulk/strength in the correct places on their body...Say what you want about Fat Andre but the guy was a road grader in the blocking game...i just do not see that in these 2 guys.

You are correct an OL is as strong as it's weakest link....Our weakest link is right in the middle but for some reason that is never addressed with this team.   And this year Zeitler was not as good as in years past because he was worrying about Bodine on his left and the rotating RT to his right.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(01-13-2017, 11:09 AM)spazz70 Wrote: DreK...injured first year...played in a few games
2nd year....played 13 games...4 starts
3rd year....played 16 games...2 starts
4th year...played 16 games...15 starts

Coaches lambasted to as why he is not on the field being a first round draft pick...remember hearing people saying the needs to be on the field...tired of the coaches taking 1st round picks and not playing them because of the veterans....taking too long to develop these young players

CedO....injured in college...got a bit of playing time year 1
Year 2...Inserted at RT from day one....

Now the coaches started him too early...he was not ready because of this injury....he needed to learn behind the veterans before he got the job.....they should have pulled him because he stunk it up....


SO, which is it? Do you start a 1st round pick and give him a chance like they did with Ced? Or do you bring them along slowly and let them learn the game like DreK?

Obviously in this scenario DreK has benefited.

Your thesis has merit. While other posters correctly stated there is a difference in the learning curves, etc., between a defensive back and an offensive tackle, I would like the board to think hard about two factors:

1. Cedric Ogbuehi wasn't junk at A&M. He graded very highly in college.

2. Has Cedric recovered fully from injury?

One could make the same two points about Dre Kirkpatrick, William Jackson III, or even Andre Smith.

[Benton]

(01-13-2017, 12:05 PM)spazz70 Wrote: Yes, I understand that concept and agree.  The thing is the guy was 1st round pick and won the job in training camp...Would liked to have seen or heard what made him the winner.  I do not think that Ced or Fisher are built to be RTs in the NFL...I do not believe either have the correct bulk for that side or at least bulk/strength in the correct places on their body...Say what you want about Fat Andre but the guy was a road grader in the blocking game...i just do not see that in these 2 guys.

You are correct an OL is as strong as it's weakest link....Our weakest link is right in the middle but for some reason that is never addressed with this team.   And this year Zeitler was not as good as in years past because he was worrying about Bodine on his left and the rotating RT to his right.

I've noticed at least the last few years that the oline is where Marvin is most likely to start a rookie. Which seems backwards to most teams that throw rookies into the fire at wr or lb or rb, but rotate rookie linemen sparingly.

just one more reason Marvin's coaching makes me drink too much a few months out of the year.

[spazz70]

(01-13-2017, 12:22 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Your thesis has merit.  While other posters correctly stated there is a difference in the learning curves, etc., between a defensive back and an offensive tackle, I would like the board to think hard about two factors:

1. Cedric Ogbuehi wasn't junk at A&M.  He graded very highly in college.

2. Has Cedric recovered fully from injury?

One could make the same two points about Dre Kirkpatrick, William Jackson III, or even Andre Smith.

I still think it is the injury and is a future LT...I personally take Cam Robinson at 9 and plug him in at RT...Re-sign Whit for 2 years re-sign Zeitler....Draft Eiflin in the 2nd....and see where we stand after 2 years....Team after team prove that a dominant OL wins games in the NFL...Look at the Cowboys after just a couple smart drafts...I believe that our defense was playing pretty good at the end of the year and most of them are back and also having WJII, Billings, Hardison coming back for competition...I believe that you upgrade immediately at OL and this team is much much better in 2017

[Speedy Thomas]

Every case is different. You need to have coaches who don't make bad decisions regarding who is ready to play in the NFL and who isn't.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-13-2017, 12:34 PM)Benton Wrote: I've noticed at least the last few years that the oline is where Marvin is most likely to start a rookie. Which seems backwards to most teams that throw rookies into the fire at wr or lb or rb, but rotate rookie linemen sparingly.

just one more reason Marvin's coaching makes me drink too much a few months out of the year.

Exactly this.....

[Shake n Blake]

It's case by case, but a bad CB is less likely to kill a season than a historically bad tackle. The corner might get burned occasionally, but he's not going to hurt you on almost every play or series. You can scheme to help a struggling corner with a safety over the top. A tackle as bad as Ooga Balooga is going to short out 3-4 offensive drives per game with drive killing sacks and pressures that lead to incompletions or INTs. Not to mention run blocking.

Honestly though, I think this discussion would be moot if our coaches were more willing to insert young players AND pull them if they suck. It's as if they commit hard to them once they're in the lineup and don't want to risk hurting their feelings.

[*ochocincos*]

The position coach definitely needs to be considered.
DreK was coached by Vance Joseph whereas Ogbuehi was coached by Paul Alexander.
While one coach has gone from DB coach to DC and already to HC in less than five years, the other has stayed in the same role on the same team for over two decades.
The reason I bring this up is not actually to bash PA because he has developed some talent over the years, but Vance Joseph could be just an even better coach, as evidenced by his ability to continually advance and take on new challenges in a short amount of time.

EDIT - I will also say that given how this team likes to take its time starting first round picks, Ogbuehi's poor performance after starting in just his sophomore year could give the coaches more reason and hesitance to starting any draft picks before their third year.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

First round picks need to start by day 1 of year 2 at the latest. Ideally should be day 1 starters.

Ogbuehi just sucks. When it was clear he was not an NFL-caliber starter (what, after like 4-6 games, tops?) he needed to be benched. Unless he makes a historic comeback of epic proportions, I don't see how he can transform what we saw this year into anything other than a huge bust.

Kirkpatrick was still a bad 1st round pick. He finally turned into a decent starter, but it took 5 years and now he's a FA.

[Goalpost]

(01-13-2017, 12:35 PM)Speedy Thomas Wrote: Every case is different.  You need to have coaches who don't make bad decisions regarding who is ready to play in the NFL and who isn't.

This is where I am at.  I, myself, thought Og was a reach, hence less likely to be ready.  And while I was luke warm about the Dre pick, his draft position was more in line with his value.  As was, we rushed Og and sat Dre which probably would have been the opposite way to manage it if it had been up to me.  

[Bilbo Saggins]

I don't think that there is a clear cut answer for each and every scenario. I'd say that the coaches probably made the right call with Kirkpatrick in letting him sit behind guys like Hall and Newman who were playing quite well at the time. The fans were kind of peeved that the guy cost a first rounder and couldn't outperform the aging vets. After witnessing how JJoe and Hall performed right out of the gate we were kind of conditioned into thinking that that is what first round corners are supposed to play like.

Ogbuhi was different in that he looked completely outmatched and sub-starter level and the coaches refused to do anything about it until the season was pretty much over. He didn't seem to be improving from week to week and they kept trying to do the same thing over and over. When either Winston or Fisher were in, the line looked better. We got the excuse that Winston was incapable of playing every game of the season(wtf?) and no explanation that I can remember on Fisher. It looked like a case of the staff trying to force a square peg in a round hole rather than even try to adjust.

[Derrick]

(01-13-2017, 02:39 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The position coach definitely needs to be considered.
DreK was coached by Vance Joseph whereas Ogbuehi was coached by Paul Alexander.
While one coach has gone from DB coach to DC and already to HC in less than five years, the other has stayed in the same role on the same team for over two decades.
The reason I bring this up is not actually to bash PA because he has developed some talent over the years, but Vance Joseph could be just an even better coach, as evidenced by his ability to continually advance and take on new challenges in a short amount of time.

EDIT - I will also say that given how this team likes to take its time starting first round picks, Ogbuehi's poor performance after starting in just his sophomore year could give the coaches more reason and hesitance to starting any draft picks before their third year.

This does not equal a good 1st round draft pick.  DUH?

[NATI BENGALS]

I don't buy the sit guys for a year bs. If you draft a weak minded individual and start them right away and they struggle yes you may permanently damage their psyche and career. But if a guy is that weak minded even if he sits a year he will still be damaged if he sucks.

With the newer restrictions on practice there is no experience like real game experience. If you want a guy to get better you have to play him.

A lot of early round OL picks have struggled lately. Ogbuehi isn't alone. He could still get better. But they guys he couldn't beat out in college to be a starting tackle suck in the NFL and after two years he looks like he could be in the same boat.

The problem is our coaches. Did Burkhead magically get better in the last month of his 4th year in the league. Or was that our ******* coaches failing to play somebody? I'm going to go with ******* coaches.

For some reason Marvin lets Paul Alexander start whoever he wants. Everybody else has to "earn the opportunity" but if you are a Paul Alexander heart throb you can be plugged right in. Bodine was just handed the job. We let Andre walk and plugged Ogbuehi in at RT when Ogbuehi says it isn't even his position. Our OL sucked all year. Yet we deactivated Westerman for every game but 1 I think. While we continued to play Boling with a bad shoulder. Winston who blows, and Bodine. Westerman did not get better sitting and watching the same way Ogbuehi didn't get better after we wasted his rookie year.

Fej made play after play after play when he got like 10 snaps earlier in the year. One would think that could "earn the opportunity" to see some more playing time, but no, not on a Marvin Lewis team.

[BengalsRocker]

(01-13-2017, 02:53 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: First round picks need to start by day 1 of year 2 at the latest. Ideally should be day 1 starters.

Ogbuehi just sucks. When it was clear he was not an NFL-caliber starter (what, after like 4-6 games, tops?) he needed to be benched. Unless he makes a historic comeback of epic proportions, I don't see how he can transform what we saw this year into anything other than a huge bust.

Kirkpatrick was still a bad 1st round pick. He finally turned into a decent starter, but it took 5 years and now he's a FA.

I agree.  Some picks are just busts.  It happens.  Look around the league.  This isn't some witch hunt.  Maybe he just sucks.

(01-13-2017, 07:58 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I don't buy the sit guys for a year bs. If you draft a weak minded individual and start them right away and they struggle yes you may permanently damage their psyche and career. But if a guy is that weak minded even if he sits a year he will still be damaged if he sucks.

With the newer restrictions on practice there is no experience like real game experience. If you want a guy to get better you have to play him.

A lot of early round OL picks have struggled lately. Ogbuehi isn't alone. He could still get better. But they guys he couldn't beat out in college to be a starting tackle suck in the NFL and after two years he looks like he could be in the same boat.

The problem is our coaches. Did Burkhead magically get better in the last month of his 4th year in the league. Or was that our ******* coaches failing to play somebody? I'm going to go with ******* coaches.

For some reason Marvin lets Paul Alexander start whoever he wants. Everybody else has to "earn the opportunity" but if you are a Paul Alexander heart throb you can be plugged right in. Bodine was just handed the job. We let Andre walk and plugged Ogbuehi in at RT when Ogbuehi says it isn't even his position. Our OL sucked all year. Yet we deactivated Westerman for every game but 1 I think. While we continued to play Boling with a bad shoulder. Winston who blows, and Bodine. Westerman did not get better sitting and watching the same way Ogbuehi didn't get better after we wasted his rookie year.

Fej made play after play after play when he got like 10 snaps earlier in the year. One would think that could "earn the opportunity" to see some more playing time, but no, not on a Marvin Lewis team.

I agree with all of this ! ^

I'm just waiting for some ass clown to come riding in here to try and debate it.

[Sabretooth]

(01-13-2017, 12:22 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Your thesis has merit.  While other posters correctly stated there is a difference in the learning curves, etc., between a defensive back and an offensive tackle, I would like the board to think hard about two factors:

1. Cedric Ogbuehi wasn't junk at A&M.  He graded very highly in college.

2. Has Cedric recovered fully from injury?

Very good points indeed

1.College success does not always mean NFL success ( trent richardson,tim tebow,johnny manziel, etc )

2.I thought Ced recently went on injured reserve ( I could be mistaken )

[Socal Bengals fan]

(01-13-2017, 11:09 AM)spazz70 Wrote: DreK...injured first year...played in a few games
2nd year....played 13 games...4 starts
3rd year....played 16 games...2 starts
4th year...played 16 games...15 starts

Coaches lambasted to as why he is not on the field being a first round draft pick...remember hearing people saying the needs to be on the field...tired of the coaches taking 1st round picks and not playing them because of the veterans....taking too long to develop these young players

CedO....injured in college...got a bit of playing time year 1
Year 2...Inserted at RT from day one....

Now the coaches started him too early...he was not ready because of this injury....he needed to learn behind the veterans before he got the job.....they should have pulled him because he stunk it up....


SO, which is it?   Do you start a 1st round pick and give him a chance like they did with Ced?  Or do you bring them along slowly and let them learn the game like DreK?

Obviously in this scenario DreK has benefited.

How about we draft somone worthy of a first round pick n that will contribute the first year without sucking so much ass.  Leon hall, JJoseph, Dunlap, Atkins , hill , green are guys tthat came in and started doing great.   It took Dre Kirkpatrick 5 years to be solid.  That's a long time.