You drafted a Guard in the 1st Round...he developed...now Pay Zeitler!

[Au165]

(01-18-2017, 04:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You know, for as much praise as the Bengals have been getting the past half-decade or so for such great drafting, there have been a lot of duds.
2011 - Moch, Sands, Whalen all busts (not counting the last two because they never even had a real shot)
2012 - Still, Thompson, Charles, Prater all busts. Jones and Sanu left in FA after their rookie deals. Herron was cut and was somewhat serviceable with Colts, but not good. DK and Zeitler could leave in FA.
2013 - Porter couldn't stay healthy and was cut. Hunt, Hawkinson, Fragel all busts. Burkhead will likely leave in FA, was underutilized during his rookie contract. Johnson hasn't really been given much opportunity, but he's been average at best from what we've seen. Hamilton was cut and is now making good plays for the Steelers for this playoff stretch.
2014 - Dennard's been hurt a lot of the time, Hill isn't what we thought he was (cue Denny Green), Bodine has been below average overall, Flowers and Wright are replaceable ST players.
2015 - Ogbuehi was putrid so far, jury still out on Fisher due to limited usage, Kroft been hurt much of 2016 and little used in 2015, Dawson bust so far, Hardison constantly hurt, Smith hurt, Alford cut.
2016 - WJ3 and Billings out all year, Vigil and Fejedelem rarely used, Westerman inactive practically all year.

You can literally do this for every team. Drafting is a very inexact science. It actually is surprising why so many teams over value draft picks when they constantly miss. It would make more sense to trade picks for proven talent, but so often teams over value draft picks.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-18-2017, 03:32 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Not how the system works here. You let expensive FA,at positions you don't value, walk and you draft their replacements. What do you think Westerman is? He's not Bodine's replacement.

Even though the Bengals have a shaky-at-best history of paying top dollar for guards, I can't envision them going into 2017 with an inexperienced 5th round pick as their unquestioned starting RG. That doesn't seem very Bengal-like, either.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-18-2017, 04:19 PM)Au165 Wrote: You can literally do this for every team. Drafting is a very inexact science. It actually is surprising why so many teams over value draft picks when they constantly miss. It would make more sense to trade picks for proven talent, but so often teams over value draft picks.

Definitely true. I assume you mean proven talent = players already in the NFL, so I will say it would also make sense to trade picks to get more selections in the top 4 rounds.
Given the Bengals' track record of making bad picks and/or not developing them well enough, perhaps it would be more worthwhile for the Bengals to trade their 5th rounder and below to get another 1-2 picks in rounds 1-4.
They also need to quit trying to draft projects. They suck at completing said projects.

[Bengal Dude]

(01-18-2017, 04:55 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Even though the Bengals have a shaky-at-best history of paying top dollar for guards, I can't envision them going into 2017 with an inexperienced 5th round pick as their unquestioned starting RG. That doesn't seem very Bengal-like, either.

If Zeitler walks, then I expect TJ Johnson, Westerman, and a mid-round pick to compete for the RG job.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-18-2017, 05:20 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: If Zeitler walks, then I expect TJ Johnson, Westerman, and a mid-round pick to compete for the RG job.

Maybe I missed it, but what has TJ Johnson done to deserve a roster spot at all? He's not shown to be much of an improvement over Bodine. I'd rather someone new come in to at least give some hope of improvement. The Bengals are terrible at developing late-round OL picks.

[Bengal Dude]

(01-18-2017, 05:33 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Maybe I missed it, but what has TJ Johnson done to deserve a roster spot at all? He's not shown to be much of an improvement over Bodine. I'd rather someone new come in to at least give some hope of improvement. The Bengals are terrible at developing late-round OL picks.

Our offense looked at its best when Johnson replaced Bodine for a few series in the Baltimore game. He also did a good job at LG in the 2nd Baltimore game. I think he's done enough to earn the backup job.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-18-2017, 05:40 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: Our offense looked at its best when Johnson replaced Bodine for a few series in the Baltimore game. He also did a good job at LG in the 2nd Baltimore game. I think he's done enough to earn the backup job.

If the Bengals re-sign Johnson and don't draft a center, I will be one sad Bengals fan.

[Bengal Dude]

(01-18-2017, 05:44 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If the Bengals re-sign Johnson and don't draft a center, I will be one sad Bengals fan.

Johnson is a restricted free agent. The Bengals always re-sign these guys.

[coachmcneil71]

Not much that I can add that y'all haven't already covered. They must try to keep the two O-line studs imho. Dalton and Green are huge investment's. Neither is any good if we can't protect Dalton and keep AJ involved in the games.

Draft another CB with the 11 picks we have and push on. This doesn't mean that I want to lose Dre K but keeping the Olines best players is pretty damn important.

[bambino5130]

(01-18-2017, 05:20 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: If Zeitler walks, then I expect TJ Johnson, Westerman, and a mid-round pick to compete for the RG job.

I am sorry but if Westerman or TJ were that good, they would have either started over Boling or Bodine or even RT, got some PT throughout the season, or hell be on the active roster. However they were not even good enough to be active and dress most weeks to be a backup. Now I hope they develop and have the potential to play someday, but I am being realistic.

If you think this Oline who had a REALLY bad year last seson will not continue the slide downwards if they dont resign Zeitler to a long term contract, and Whit to a 1-2 year deal, then buckle up. They can afford to keep Zeitler long term and sign Whit to a short term deal. It's not as if there is a Dallas Cowboy money invested in this line. You can afford to pay at least two guys on the Oline. If there HAD to be a choice I would resign Zeitler over Whit, it pains me to say it, but Whit only has 1-2 years left max as Kevin has what 10+. Its not that difficult.

I get not being able to resign those two and Kirkpatrick, so bye bye Dre good luck and godspeed. You have two 1st round CB picks sitting on the bench in WJIII and Denard. Time to find out what those guys have.

[BengalsRocker]

I still think they should tag Z and pay him. Draft a G or develop one on roster to eventually replace him.

Sign Whit to a short front loaded deal.

Sign a proven FA at RT to a multi-year deal. Have Fisher be his backup.

Center either needs to be drafted or signed via Free Agency. (In reality this should be priority one. Dalton deserves to have confidence in the guy snapping him the ball. Bodine is one of the worst centers in the league.)

All of these moves need to take place with different consultation. PA has been awful at evaluating talent here.

Sign DreK to a multi-year deal. Dennard doesn't look great, and WJIII is trying to re-establish himself from a serious injury.

I don't trust this team at drafting CBs either. Dre took forever and he's close to being good enough... that's more than one would expect with their track record.

[Thundercloud]

What really knocked our season sideways in 2016 was an offensive line that was completely discombobulated for at least half the season. It was mostly Ogbeuhi, and his confused, tentative play which kept the entire right side in chaos. Throw in our stubbornness about proving the coaches right, and you get a ruined season.

I think we've got a lot of needs, but none greater than stabilizing the offensive line, and then making it a strength again. Zeitler has to be a part of that if we've got a brain in our head. We should also get a strong journeyman o-lineman in free agency. Retaining Whitworth goes without saying. This also assumes that Fisher can settle in and do the job with a full camp at right tackle, which I think he can.

Ogbuehi should have to prove himself completely before he gets a chance to replace Whitworth, maybe in 2018.

[THE PISTONS]

(01-18-2017, 04:19 PM)Au165 Wrote: You can literally do this for every team. Drafting is a very inexact science. It actually is surprising why so many teams over value draft picks when they constantly miss. It would make more sense to trade picks for proven talent, but so often teams over value draft picks.

But the Bengals make you believe that drafting is the way to build and free agency is evil.

The rate of misses from the draft is probably much higher overall than free agents as they have played in the NFL before.

[THE PISTONS]

(01-18-2017, 09:31 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I still think they should tag Z and pay him.  Draft a G or develop one on roster to eventually replace him.

Sign Whit to a short front loaded deal.

Sign a proven FA at RT to a multi-year deal.  Have Fisher be his backup.

Center either needs to be drafted or signed via Free Agency. (In reality this should be priority one. Dalton deserves to have confidence in the guy snapping him the ball.  Bodine is one of the worst centers in the league.)

All of these moves need to take place with different consultation.  PA has been awful at evaluating talent here.

Sign DreK to a multi-year deal.  Dennard doesn't look great, and WJIII is trying to re-establish himself from a serious injury.

I don't trust this team at drafting CBs either.  Dre took forever and he's close to being good enough...  that's more than one would expect with their track record.

We definitely need to use our tag. I read the Browns have $110 million in cap space. The 49ers have some $80 million with the carryover space.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

I'm not so sure Zeitler really developed. I don't know if I see him as any better than when he was drafted. He is what he was then, a bit above average player.

Not bad to have, and you need plenty of them on your team to make a good team, but it doesn't mean you should be paying them $9-10m/yr.

I just don't see Zeitler as a $9-10m/yr player. He doesn't take over any games, he doesn't dominate anyone. I don't know if it's him, or coaching (probably at least in part coaching), but he never became that dominate blocker in the run game that they expected him to become when he was drafted. Honestly, I think a healthy Boling is a better guard than Zeitler.

[Derrick]

(01-18-2017, 06:33 PM)bambino5130 Wrote: I am sorry but if Westerman or TJ were that good, they would have either started over Boling or Bodine or even RT, got some PT throughout the season, or hell be on the active roster. However they were not even good enough to be active and dress most weeks to be a backup. Now I hope they develop and have the potential to play someday, but I am being realistic.

If you think this Oline who had a REALLY bad year last seson will not continue the slide downwards if they dont resign Zeitler to a long term contract, and Whit to a 1-2 year deal, then buckle up. They can afford to keep Zeitler long term and sign Whit to a short term deal. It's not as if there is a Dallas Cowboy money invested in this line. You can afford to pay at least two guys on the Oline. If there HAD to be a choice I would resign Zeitler over Whit, it pains me to say it, but Whit only has 1-2 years left max as Kevin has what 10+. Its not that difficult.

I get not being able to resign those two and Kirkpatrick, so bye bye Dre good luck and godspeed. You have two 1st round CB picks sitting on the bench in WJIII and Denard. Time to find out what those guys have.

Aren't you speculating as to the cause? It is equally likely a coaching decision (or owner) to play the higher pick$

[NATI BENGALS]

(01-18-2017, 06:33 PM)bambino5130 Wrote: I am sorry but if Westerman or TJ were that good, they would have either started over Boling or Bodine or even RT, got some PT throughout the season, or hell be on the active roster. However they were not even good enough to be active and dress most weeks to be a backup. Now I hope they develop and have the potential to play someday, but I am being realistic.

If you think this Oline who had a REALLY bad year last seson will not continue the slide downwards if they dont resign Zeitler to a long term contract, and Whit to a 1-2 year deal, then buckle up. They can afford to keep Zeitler long term and sign Whit to a short term deal. It's not as if there is a Dallas Cowboy money invested in this line. You can afford to pay at least two guys on the Oline. If there HAD to be a choice I would resign Zeitler over Whit, it pains me to say it, but Whit only has 1-2 years left max as Kevin has what 10+. Its not that difficult.

I get not being able to resign those two and Kirkpatrick, so bye bye Dre good luck and godspeed. You have two 1st round CB picks sitting on the bench in WJIII and Denard. Time to find out what those guys have.

Wow. You give our coaching staff way to much credit. 

What makes you think they are capable of starting the best guys? Or that they would even give someone an opportunity to prove themselves?

The most we saw of Burkhead before injuries forced our incompetent staff to put him on the field was when injuries forced him to play WR for us in the playoffs. After 4 years we have a tiny sample size of what he is capable of. This incompetent staff handed Ogbuehi the starting job at a position he is not comfortable at when there were two better options available. Fisher, who was the best option, was their 3rd choice. Bodine has been shit. They havent tried anyone else. 

Marvin Lewis and the majority of his staff are junk. 

[THE PISTONS]

(01-18-2017, 10:10 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I'm not so sure Zeitler really developed. I don't know if I see him as any better than when he was drafted. He is what he was then, a bit above average player.

Not bad to have, and you need plenty of them on your team to make a good team, but it doesn't mean you should be paying them $9-10m/yr.

I just don't see Zeitler as a $9-10m/yr player. He doesn't take over any games, he doesn't dominate anyone. I don't know if it's him, or coaching (probably at least in part coaching), but he never became that dominate blocker in the run game that they expected him to become when he was drafted. Honestly, I think a healthy Boling is a better guard than Zeitler.

Good point. What players actually do develop from there rookie year here?

Atkins comes to mind as one. I can't think of many though.

Guys like Jeremy Hill have regressed.

[Jpoore]

(01-18-2017, 06:33 PM)bambino5130 Wrote: I am sorry but if Westerman or TJ were that good, they would have either started over Boling or Bodine or even RT, got some PT throughout the season, or hell be on the active roster. However they were not even good enough to be active and dress most weeks to be a backup. Now I hope they develop and have the potential to play someday, but I am being realistic.

If you think this Oline who had a REALLY bad year last seson will not continue the slide downwards if they dont resign Zeitler to a long term contract, and Whit to a 1-2 year deal, then buckle up. They can afford to keep Zeitler long term and sign Whit to a short term deal. It's not as if there is a Dallas Cowboy money invested in this line. You can afford to pay at least two guys on the Oline. If there HAD to be a choice I would resign Zeitler over Whit, it pains me to say it, but Whit only has 1-2 years left max as Kevin has what 10+. Its not that difficult.

I get not being able to resign those two and Kirkpatrick, so bye bye Dre good luck and godspeed. You have two 1st round CB picks sitting on the bench in WJIII and Denard. Time to find out what those guys have.

Gotta disagree bc dennard hasn't made it out of otas/camp healthy yet.

[Joelist]

Actually TJ Johnson did look decent when the coaches FINALLY benched Bodine. Then of course they had their usual brain freeze, reinserted Bodine and the blocking problems promptly returned. If they were to tag Big Z, resign Whit, insert Fisher at RT and cut Bodine in favor of Johnson I would be content.