Rank the Bengal QB

[fredtoast]

(07-11-2015, 04:13 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I find it hilarious that I gave Andy a higher ranking than some of the people that I've spent the last 3 years arguing with regarding his ability.

I'd love to be on the other side of the argument this time, so how are you people coming to the 17-20 conclusion? 

I think Andy could be a top 10 QB.  When you look at his entire career compared to most QBs at the same stage of their careers it is clear he has the potential to be a very good QB.  

But I just couldn't rank him that high after the '14 season.

[Utts]

I think most scouts use the following scale:

- Elite
- Above Average
- Average
- Dalton
- Terrible

[fredtoast]

(07-11-2015, 06:39 PM)Utts Wrote: I think most scouts use the following scale:

- Elite
- Above Average
- Average
- Dalton
- Terrible

FDR

[*SHRacerX*]

I said 9-12, which I am sure will bring ridicule.

I think this is the year Andy solidifies himself as a Top 10 QB. As I have stated numerous times, I believe that his projection from his first three years had him aimed squarely at the Top 10. Last year was a "speedbump", but this year with at least the majority of his weapons available and year 2 in Hue's system, I think he gets back on track.

I also really like the character of the guy. I know that doesn't win you playoff games, but I think Andy has shown great resolve in the face of great adversity. Everything he has been through up to this point is going to make him a very tough competitor as he approaches his prime.

Remember, Brees wasn't really Brees until he got to New Orleans. Aaron Rogers sat for, what, three years? Tony Romo wasn't immediately handed the reigns. Neither was Brady. People thought Manning would never win the big one. Give Andy time. He is on the right track and he has the pieces around him to go all the way now. I couldn't be more excited for this season.

[Utts]

(07-11-2015, 01:45 PM)J24 Wrote: I have him at 19th. He would be higher if he could cut down on his turnovers and inconsistent play.

So what you're saying is he'd be ranked higher if he were a better player? He could also be a unicorn if he had a pointy thing growing out of his forehead and 4 legs.

[Utts]

(07-11-2015, 06:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: FDR

JFK

[Aquapod770]

After 2013 he moved up into the 13-16 range and was on the verge of going higher. After this year he drops back to the 17-20 range.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-11-2015, 04:13 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I find it hilarious that I gave Andy a higher ranking than some of the people that I've spent the last 3 years arguing with regarding his ability.

I'd love to be on the other side of the argument this time, so how are you people coming to the 17-20 conclusion? Are there 16 guys clearly better than Andy right now? I don't know, I voted 13-16 and I think it's completely reasonable. Andy is pretty good, and though he's not great, I don't think I'd straight up trade him for 16 different QBs today.

Only an Andy nuthugger would rank him higher than 17th. 

Seriously though, as of right now I'd take the following QB's over Andy this year:

Rodgers
Brady
Peyton
Brees
Rivers
Pig Ben
Romo
Ryan
Newton
Wilson
Tannehill
Eli 
Flacco (mainly for his playoff success, he's pretty much Dalton's equal otherwise)
Stafford (although he's pretty much Dalton with a cannon)
A.Smith (again, mainly for his playoff success)
Palmer 

I'm not sure I'd trade Dalton for Palmer (for this season), but it's close. I voted 17-20 because Andy had a poor season in '14, but I think you could throw him anywhere from 14th through 18th realistically. When you really take a close look at what else is out there, Dalton really isn't bad at all. That's why I've always defended him when people say he's garbage. We could do better, but top 10 guys don't grow on trees. I just wish they'd get the damn playoff monkey off their backs. It'd do a lot for Marv and Dalton's image. Not to mention it'd boost the morale of the entire fan base.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-11-2015, 06:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think Andy could be a top 10 QB.  When you look at his entire career compared to most QBs at the same stage of their careers it is clear he has the potential to be a very good QB.  

But I just couldn't rank him that high after the '14 season.

He was #10 with a 90+ rating going into the Ravens finale in '13 before throwing 4 ints and dropping 5 spots.

[fredtoast]

I think Tannehill is a little overrated. He is among the worst QBs in the league in throwing the ball down the filed. I give him credit for being very efficient throwing short stuff, but he is also very limited.

[fredtoast]

(07-11-2015, 11:31 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: A.Smith (again, mainly for his playoff success)

Perfect example of why people should not give up hope on Dalton

Through his first five seasons Alex Smith had thrown more ints (53) than tds (51) and had a career passer rating of 72.1.  He had never had a season with a passer rating higher than 83 and he was 19-31 as a starter.

[Luvnit2]

(07-11-2015, 11:31 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Only an Andy nuthugger would rank him higher than 17th. 

Seriously though, as of right now I'd take the following QB's over Andy this year:

Rodgers
Brady
Peyton
Brees
Rivers
Pig Ben
Romo
Ryan
Newton
Wilson
Tannehill
Eli 
Flacco (mainly for his playoff success, he's pretty much Dalton's equal otherwise)
Stafford (although he's pretty much Dalton with a cannon)
A.Smith (again, mainly for his playoff success)
Palmer 

I'm not sure I'd trade Dalton for Palmer (for this season), but it's close. I voted 17-20 because Andy had a poor season in '14, but I think you could throw him anywhere from 14th through 18th realistically. When you really take a close look at what else is out there, Dalton really isn't bad at all. That's why I've always defended him when people say he's garbage. We could do better, but top 10 guys don't grow on trees. I just wish they'd get the damn playoff monkey off their backs. It'd do a lot for Marv and Dalton's image. Not to mention it'd boost the morale of the entire fan base.

 I guess I factor in more than a QB's current success.

I think age is important if I am trading AD for another QB on your list.
I think contract is important as well.

So, I would remove the following and keep AD because of the reasons above + AD is very young by NFL starting QB standards.
Peyton

Brees
Rivers
Romo
Flacco (contract is huge liability for the future)
Palmer
A. Smith

I also feel AD was not as bad as some believe in 2014 once all the WR/TE injuries are factored in along with the loss of his RT (Smith)

I think the AD ceiling is higher in the next 3 to 4 years than all of those guys listed. If we were saying we could afford to keep AD and one of the guys you listed, then I would agree 100% with your list other than A. Smith.

[*Nately120*]

(07-12-2015, 11:18 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Perfect example of why people should not give up hope on Dalton

Through his first five seasons Alex Smith had thrown more ints (53) than tds (51) and had a career passer rating of 72.1.  He had never had a season with a passer rating higher than 83 and he was 19-31 as a starter.

Maybe we should have offered Jim Hairball the HC spot, then.

[fredtoast]

(07-11-2015, 06:39 PM)Utts Wrote: I think most scouts use the following scale:

- Elite
- Above Average
- Average
- Dalton
- Terrible

(07-11-2015, 06:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: FDR

(07-11-2015, 06:45 PM)Utts Wrote: JFK

JFK was not lame.

So what exactly are you trying to say?

[Wes Mantooth]

I put him at 21-26. Fwiw, I had him in that 14-18 to range last year.

A little reasoning: After this season, after he seeing the melt down that was the Browns game, and with the emergence of a few QB's like Carr and Bridgewater, along with the potential of names like Mariotta and Winston, I had to drop him. Least year I have Andy ahead of a guy like Palmer, now I definitely have Palmer ahead of Andy. I had Andy equal to Flacoo and Eli last year but now I'm not so sure.

The more and more I watch the more and more I'm convinced he never takes that next step. I don't his progression has been that great, given the experienced gained and talent added. Although that's not necessarily his fault, as he was never billed as having a lot of potential in the future, but was more NFL ready and was closed to a finished product.

Andy has had more than adequate talent. He's had better than average lines, he's had some decent weapons in the receiving game, and he's been paired with some pretty darn good defenses in his career. He's been given a good deal to work with. And he's been ok. Sometimes great, sometimes terrible. But I really have to wonder what he'd look like on the Jags or the Titans. Because I'm not so sure he's any better than Locker or Gabbert in those situations. So from a sheer talent standpoint I think he's below average.

I'll stop my rambling here...

[*Nately120*]

(07-12-2015, 11:57 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Andy has had more than adequate talent.  He's had better than average lines, he's had some decent weapons in the receiving game, and he's been paired with some pretty darn good defenses in his career.  He's been given a good deal to work with.  And he's been ok.  Sometimes great, sometimes terrible.  But I really have to wonder what he'd look like on the Jags or the Titans.  Because I'm not so sure he's any better than Locker or Gabbert in those situations.  So from a sheer talent standpoint I think he's below average.

I'll stop my rambling here...

I think you're going a little overboard here.  Gabbert and Locker are busts of the highest order who can't even stay on the field.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-12-2015, 11:30 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote:  I guess I factor in more than a QB's current success.

I think age is important if I am trading AD for another QB on your list.
I think contract is important as well.

So, I would remove the following and keep AD because of the reasons above + AD is very young by NFL starting QB standards.
Peyton

Brees
Rivers
Romo
Flacco (contract is huge liability for the future)
Palmer
A. Smith

I also feel AD was not as bad as some believe in 2014 once all the WR/TE injuries are factored in along with the loss of his RT (Smith)

I think the AD ceiling is higher in the next 3 to 4 years than all of those guys listed. If we were saying we could afford to keep AD and one of the guys you listed, then I would agree 100% with your list other than A. Smith.

Well I do factor in more than just current performance. I would've ranked him 13-16 prior to last season, but that season just drops him a little bit for me. I fully expect him to rebound and if he does, I'll move him up again.

I don't see why you would factor in age in rankings. This isn't about who will be better to have over the next 10 years. It's about right now.

[Wes Mantooth]

(07-12-2015, 12:08 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I think you're going a little overboard here.  Gabbert and Locker are busts of the highest order who can't even stay on the field.

Perhaps, but I'm not so sure they would have been as big of busts here.  And I think Ponder in particular would look very similar to Andy and vice versa, had their situations been reversed. If you look at the talent around Andy compared to what guys like them had to work with, it's night and day.  Maybe Andy isn't quite as bad but I think he's forgotten in those situations just as those guys are now.

Fwiw, I do kinda try do this with every QB.  Remove the situation that surrounds him.  Plug in different QB's in different teams.  You take Brees off the Saints and he's still pretty much going to be Drew Brees anywhere.  Peyton Manning and Brady are going to win games anywhere.  Heck, take even a guy like Flacco, he might see increases with a deeper and more talented corp.  But I don't think Andy really gets much better anywhere else.  Not a ton at least.  I think this is as pretty much as good as it's going to get.  Whereas you put him on a bad team, I think the wheels completely come off.  I don't think Andy could even match what Carr did last year in Oakland.

The best example I always can come up with is a healthy Sam Bradford.  Hypothetically, you take a healthy Bradford (which he is now) and put him on one of the Andy lead teams of the last few years and you put Andy on one of the Bradford lead Rams teams, and what do you get?  Because most rankings have these guys usually pretty equal (fair enough).  But I think a guy like Bradford flourishes with more talent, and more than what Andy has done here.  And I think Andy just because another former NFL starter after a few years on the Rams.

I'm not so sure if Andy hit the open market that he'd be a starter in two seasons.  And he still might not here.  His talent level is just too similar to that of the Kyle Orton's and Chad Henne's of the world.  (Is he really much better than these two from a talent standpoint?)  Outisde of this town, teams will draft and continue to look to upgrade over veterans like this.  And I think Andy is very close to these types of names.

[fredtoast]

(07-12-2015, 12:35 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote:   Outisde of this town, teams will draft and continue to look to upgrade over veterans like this.  And I think Andy is very close to these types of names.

Actually every single team in the NFL gives a QB with Dalton's skills a long term contract worth around $15 million a year.

You don't really say anything except that you think Dalton is bad because you think he is bad.  But that just is not the truth.

Dalton has never had a good running game and healthy receivers at the same time.  After A.J. Green he has rarely had another good #2 WR.  Gresham was a good, but far from great TE.  So Dalton has rarely had a great receiving corps to work with.  When he did in '13 he finished 3rd in tds, 8th in yards and 15th in passer rating.

I agree that talent effects every QB, but you don't look at it realistically.  For example, when Brady didn't have Gronk he was not even as good as Andy.  

[*bengalfan74*]

I voted 17-20 but like others have said it gets kinda murky after like 14 or so and you could make a case for him to come in anywhere around there.

I still believe he can make it up pushing top 10 and I'm hoping this is the year he does.