Rank the Bengal QB

[Luvnit2]

(07-12-2015, 12:20 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Well I do factor in more than just current performance. I would've ranked him 13-16 prior to last season, but that season just drops him a little bit for me. I fully expect him to rebound and if he does, I'll move him up again.

I don't see why you would factor in age in rankings. This isn't about who will be better to have over the next 10 years. It's about right now.

I factor in age because I took your post as an either AD or someone else. As I mentioned, if we keep AD on the team, then yes I am on board with the Peyton Manning, Romo's and others. But I would not bankrupt the future and put all of my eggs in one basket for aging QB's when the jury is still out on the one we have now.


If so, I look at 2015 and want instant success, but I also have an eye on the future and know QB's who help their team go to the playoffs as a rookie and then for 3 years are scarce unless you have the number one overall pick in a "Andrew Luck" type year. I don't see this team getting a number 1 pick and being the worst team in the NFL in the foreseeable future with AD or with one of the guys you listed.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-12-2015, 01:51 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I factor in age because I took your post as an either AD or someone else. As I mentioned, if we keep AD on the team, then yes I am on board with the Peyton Manning, Romo's and others. But I would not bankrupt the future and put all of my eggs in one basket for aging QB's when the jury is still out on the one we have now.


If so, I look at 2015 and want instant success, but I also have an eye on the future and know QB's who help their team go to the playoffs as a rookie and then for 3 years are scarce unless you have the number one overall pick in a "Andrew Luck" type year. I don't see this team getting a number 1 pick and being the worst team in the NFL in the foreseeable future with AD or with one of the guys you listed.

Not sure I follow. In the post you referenced, I said this:

(07-11-2015, 11:31 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Seriously though, as of right now I'd take the following QB's over Andy this year:

...

So I'm not sure why you'd factor in age due to anything I said. When most people rank the best players, they don't factor in age, unless it's a list of best young players or something of that nature. 

[Joe Pong]

Maybe not top 5, but definitely somewhere in the 6-8 range.

[djs7685]

(07-12-2015, 04:08 PM)Joe Pong Wrote: Maybe not top 5, but definitely somewhere in the 6-8 range.

[PDub80]

This article from NFL.com sums it up perfectly...

The Dalton theory explained:

Andy Dalton is the measuring stick for all starting quarterbacks. If your starting passer is worse than Dalton, you need to find a better solution. If your starter is better than Dalton, then he qualifies as "The Guy."

The Bengals' insistence that Dalton is worthy of franchise-quarterback money doesn't change the scale. Only Dalton's play can do that. Until then, the Bengals will stay stuck in the middle. Dalton led the league in shoulder shrugs by disappointed receivers. When he's cold, he's really cold.


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000388688/article/quarterback-index-ranking-the-starters-132

Summing it up: The Bengals need to find a better guy behind center.

[Thundercloud]

I voted 17-20. The interesting thing to me is that I think at this point, he is very likely to move up or down, and not just hang right there for the next few years. He either gets over it, and makes some plays in crucial games and quits going catatonic, or he crumbles under the pressure of being considered a choker.

I hope it's the former.

[Utts]

(07-12-2015, 01:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually every single team in the NFL gives a QB with Dalton's skills a long term contract worth around $15 million a year.

This is what you call a "Fred Fact".

[EatonFan]

(07-12-2015, 07:51 PM)Utts Wrote: This is what you call a "Fred Fact".

And an Utts counter.

[guyofthetiger]

Dalton has done okay. Has problems with the long ball. Needs to win a playoff game.

[fredtoast]

(07-12-2015, 07:51 PM)Utts Wrote: This is what you call a "Fred Fact".

Look at where Andy is rated.

Look at what every QB ranked as high as him is getting paid.

[BengalChris]

Voted 13-16, which probably surprises a few of you. If there were an option 15-18, I'd have picked that.

I opted for this because he has had some really nice games. The dog games just kill his ranking.

Didn't like seeing this, Dalton-attends-All-Star-Celebrity-Softball-Game. Wrote priority for a guy who had a bad year. Should have said, Dalton practicing with team's WRs on his own.

[djs7685]

I'm still sort of confused at the 17-20 guys.

QBs clearly better than Andy...

Rodgers
Brady
P Manning
Brees
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Luck
Romo
Wilson
Ryan
Flacco (his postseason numbers since 2010 puts him ahead of any middle tier QBs)

Those are not even debatable at this point. That's 11 guys that have proven to be better than Andy (at least for now). If you have Andy higher than 12, you're flat out wrong. Sure, opinions can't technically be "wrong", but you're wrong.

Here's where it gets tricky. If you have him in the 17-20 tier, you have to put between 5-8 guys left ahead of Andy Dalton.

Carson Palmer - maybe
Matt Cassell - no
Cam Newton - arguable for sure
Jay Cutler - maybe
Jake McCown - no
Matt Stafford - arguable
Bobby Hoyer - lol Bobby. But no.
Blake Bortles - I honestly think he can/will be better, huge Bortles fan, but he's not right now
Alex Smith - no
Ryan Tannehill - maybe
Teddy Bridgewater - see Bortles
Eli Manning - probably better than Andy
Geno Smith - no
Derek Carr - see Bortles
Sam Bradford - no
Colin Kaepernick - maybe
Nick Foles - no
Jameis Winston - no
Marcus Mariota - no
Robert Griffin III - no

Similar to bfine's lists except we see things slightly different at times. I have a hard time with 17-20 because that would mean that almost all of the guys that are arguable or maybe better than Andy would have to go ahead of him. I can see definitely putting a couple ahead, but 5-7? That's tough, even for someone that doesn't think he's a great QB. I don't even think there's a way to argue that he's 21 or worse either.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(07-13-2015, 10:40 AM)djs7685 Wrote: I'm still sort of confused at the 17-20 guys.

QBs clearly better than Andy...

Rodgers
Brady
P Manning
Brees
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Luck
Romo
Wilson
Ryan
Flacco (his postseason numbers since 2010 puts him ahead of any middle tier QBs)

Those are not even debatable at this point. That's 11 guys that have proven to be better than Andy (at least for now). If you have Andy higher than 12, you're flat out wrong. Sure, opinions can't technically be "wrong", but you're wrong.

Here's where it gets tricky. If you have him in the 17-20 tier, you have to put between 5-8 guys left ahead of Andy Dalton.

Carson Palmer - maybe
Matt Cassell - no
Cam Newton - arguable for sure
Jay Cutler - maybe
Jake McCown - no
Matt Stafford - arguable
Bobby Hoyer - lol Bobby. But no.
Blake Bortles - I honestly think he can/will be better, huge Bortles fan, but he's not right now
Alex Smith - no
Ryan Tannehill - maybe
Teddy Bridgewater - see Bortles
Eli Manning - probably better than Andy
Geno Smith - no
Derek Carr - see Bortles
Sam Bradford - no
Colin Kaepernick - maybe
Nick Foles - no
Jameis Winston - no
Marcus Mariota - no
Robert Griffin III - no

Similar to bfine's lists except we see things slightly different at times. I have a hard time with 17-20 because that would mean that almost all of the guys that are arguable or maybe better than Andy would have to go ahead of him. I can see definitely putting a couple ahead, but 5-7? That's tough, even for someone that doesn't think he's a great QB. I don't even think there's a way to argue that he's 21 or worse either.

I actually think Andy compares pretty well to Eli in terms of (regular season) career trajectory

[djs7685]

(07-13-2015, 11:01 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I actually think Andy compares pretty well to Eli in terms of (regular season) career trajectory

I do too, but I think the fact that Eli came back with a solid 2014 after his miserable 2013 puts him back ahead of Andy in most rankings. His SB runs were at least a few years ago now, so I'm not even sure we could say that Eli is clearly better today because of those.

Not to mention he wasn't really swamped with talent in 2014 either, he had Beckham to throw jump balls to and that's about it. Not a good line, receivers dropped more passes than Andy's, not many weapons in general, pretty miserable run game, and a pretty bad defense to boot. I give a lot of credit to Eli for rebounding and looking like a good QB last season, I can honestly say I didn't think he had it in him after watching him throughout 2013.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(07-13-2015, 11:09 AM)djs7685 Wrote: I do too, but I think the fact that Eli came back with a solid 2014 after his miserable 2013 puts him back ahead of Andy in most rankings. His SB runs were at least a few years ago now, so I'm not even sure we could say that Eli is clearly better today because of those.

Not to mention he wasn't really swamped with talent in 2014 either, he had Beckham to throw jump balls to and that's about it. Not a good line, receivers dropped more passes than Andy's, not many weapons in general, pretty miserable run game, and a pretty bad defense to boot. I give a lot of credit to Eli for rebounding and looking like a pretty good QB last season, I can honestly say I didn't think he had it in him after watching him throughout 2013.

Even in those SB runs, that defense was murderers row rushing the QB.

[djs7685]

(07-13-2015, 11:18 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Even in those SB runs, that defense was murderers row rushing the QB.

He still played very well though for the most part. They had a great defense, but he was doing his job too. Those were still quite a while ago, and definitely aren't the reason why I think 2014/2015 Eli is better than 2014/2015 Andy.

I think Eli could actually make a case for one of your better QBs in 2014 if you consider supporting cast and everything else. Going by 2014 alone I'd probably say he belongs in the "clearly better than Andy" category. Not an Eli fan, but he looked good last season.

[Stormborn]

(07-13-2015, 10:40 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Here's where it gets tricky. If you have him in the 17-20 tier, you have to put between 5-8 guys left ahead of Andy Dalton.

Carson Palmer - maybe
Matt Cassell - no
Cam Newton - arguable for sure
Jay Cutler - maybe
Jake McCown - no
Matt Stafford - arguable
Bobby Hoyer - lol Bobby. But no.
Blake Bortles - I honestly think he can/will be better, huge Bortles fan, but he's not right now
Alex Smith - no
Ryan Tannehill - maybe
Teddy Bridgewater - see Bortles
Eli Manning - probably better than Andy
Geno Smith - no
Derek Carr - see Bortles
Sam Bradford - no
Colin Kaepernick - maybe
Nick Foles - no
Jameis Winston - no
Marcus Mariota - no
Robert Griffin III - no

I actually ranked all QBs based on who I want right now for 1 year, no long term commitments, just who you feel confident with in this offense this year. Out of these listed, these were the guys ahead of Andy after the 11 we agreed on:

Plain simply upgrades-
Newton
Manning

Intrigues, curious enough to pull the trigger-
Stafford
Tannehill
Bridgewater

[RoyleRedlegs]

(07-13-2015, 12:08 PM)djs7685 Wrote: He still played very well though for the most part. They had a great defense, but he was doing his job too. Those were still quite a while ago, and definitely aren't the reason why I think 2014/2015 Eli is better than 2014/2015 Andy.

I think Eli could actually make a case for one of your better QBs in 2014 if you consider supporting cast and everything else. Going by 2014 alone I'd probably say he belongs in the "clearly better than Andy" category. Not an Eli fan, but he looked good last season.

I agree he did his job, but the pressure was off of him for a lot of it. 

He's capable of better seasons than Andy sporadically, but over the course of his 12 seasons, he had 5 worse than any Andy has had. They are eerily similar career % completions, attempts, average, rating, ypg, TD%, INT%...

I think Andy's ceiling is the Matt Ryan, Eli Manning type. Good enough but needs the team to play really well too. 

[*bfine32*]

(07-13-2015, 10:40 AM)djs7685 Wrote: I'm still sort of confused at the 17-20 guys.


Here's where it gets tricky. If you have him in the 17-20 tier, you have to put between 5-8 guys left ahead of Andy Dalton.

Carson Palmer - maybe
Matt Cassell - no
Cam Newton - arguable for sure
Jay Cutler - maybe
Jake McCown - no
Matt Stafford - arguable
Bobby Hoyer - lol Bobby. But no.
Blake Bortles - I honestly think he can/will be better, huge Bortles fan, but he's not right now
Alex Smith - no
Ryan Tannehill - maybe
Teddy Bridgewater - see Bortles
Eli Manning - probably better than Andy
Geno Smith - no
Derek Carr - see Bortles
Sam Bradford - no
Colin Kaepernick - maybe
Nick Foles - no
Jameis Winston - no
Marcus Mariota - no
Robert Griffin III - no

Similar to bfine's lists except we see things slightly different at times. I have a hard time with 17-20 because that would mean that almost all of the guys that are arguable or maybe better than Andy would have to go ahead of him. I can see definitely putting a couple ahead, but 5-7? That's tough, even for someone that doesn't think he's a great QB. I don't even think there's a way to argue that he's 21 or worse either.

...and to rank him 16th or better you can only say 5 at the most on that list are better than Andy:

Manning- Multiple Super Bowl rings and just came off a season better that Andy has ever had
Newton- Passing efficiency has pretty much mirrored each other throughout their careers. The difference is, Superman can run
Kaepernick- Has proven to be very efficient, has already been to a Super Bowl, and Superman may be the only better running QB in the NFL
Tannehill- Already has had a season with a better passer rating than Andy has had in his career and done so with lesser talent
Alex Smith- Very efficient QB. Compare his and Andy's playoff games against the Colts and get back to me.

This right here puts Andy at 17 and at this point you have to totally dismiss the promise of the one-year guys, the absolute cannons of Stafford and Cutler, the health of Bradford and Palmer, you have to assume RGIII and Foles were one-year wonders to keep him in the top 20's

[fredtoast]

(07-12-2015, 06:42 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Summing it up: The Bengals need to find a better guy behind center.

That is not what it says at all.