Dre Kirkpatrick

[Derrick]

(01-31-2017, 02:34 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, Russell has talent, i liked what i saw the little i saw from the man.

Dre was better this year but in no way is the guy elite or even irreplaceable.

Personally i would rather bring back Zeitler over Kirkpatrick.

The player that HAS to be brought back is Whitworth.

Me too also...

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-01-2017, 05:09 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: The Browns signed Steinbach and we struggled at LG until Boling was inserted in 2012.

I think that's more a Paul Alexander problem than anything. He's the one who made Nate Livings "his guy". Just like Roland, and Bodine, and now Ogbuehi.

[bengalsfan73]

I guess it is good to have confidence in yourself but come on Dre is not an elite shutdown cornerback in the NFL. He cant keep his hands off of receivers and he gets burned quite a bit and oh yeah he cant stay on the field half of the time due to injuries. I definitely would let him test the market and see how elite other teams think he is and if they want to overpay him then that is great. I would offer him a contract in the range of a 5 year 30-40 million dollar contract and nothing more because he has not proven that he deserves anything more. He has potential to be a shutdown corner but he is not anything close to that now. If he wants to walk then I would let him and focus on using the money to re-sign Zeitler who in my opinion is still the biggest priority.

[Jpoore]

(02-03-2017, 11:46 AM)bengalsfan73 Wrote: I guess it is good to have confidence in yourself but come on Dre is not an elite shutdown cornerback in the NFL. He cant keep his hands off of receivers and he gets burned quite a bit and oh yeah he cant stay on the field half of the time due to injuries. I definitely would let him test the market and see how elite other teams think he is and if they want to overpay him then that is great. I would offer him a contract in the range of a 5 year 30-40 million dollar contract and nothing more because he has not proven that he deserves anything more. He has potential to be a shutdown corner but he is not anything close to that now. If he wants to walk then I would let him and focus on using the money to re-sign Zeitler who in my opinion is still the biggest priority.

He deserves 9-10 million per year as do z and wit pay all 3. U can't let Dre walk bc if pacman isn't here we would have a horrible secondary. 

[fredtoast]

(02-02-2017, 07:07 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I think that's more a Paul Alexander problem than anything. He's the one who made Nate Livings "his guy".

In 2009 Evan Mathis was starting ahead of Livings until he got injured in the 9th game against Baltimore.

The problem with our O-line back then was lack of investment by the team.  They had used their #1 pick on an OT that year (Smith) but he was injured. In the ten seasons before that they had only used 3 picks in the first three rounds on O-linemen.

[fredtoast]

(02-03-2017, 11:46 AM)bengalsfan73 Wrote: I guess it is good to have confidence in yourself but come on Dre is not an elite shutdown cornerback in the NFL.

He finished '17 ranked 6th in the league among CBs in yards per target (4.9).

Not saying he is an elite shut down corner, but he is among the better CBs in the league.  Check out his numbers compared to First Team All Pro Aqib Talib

Dre - 4.9 yards per pass, 1.4 YAC, 68 targets, 10 passes defended, 3 INT, 35 tackles, 11 tackle assists, 46 total tackles
Talib - 4.3 yards per pass, 1.4 YAC, 58 targets, 12 passes defended, 3 INT, 32 tackles, 11 tackle assists, 43 total tackles

Kirkpatrick is one of those players who has usually been grossly underrated by many Bengal fans.

[fredtoast]

It is funny how free agency works. A player's value is often determined by who else is a free agent the same year. Dre is a very good CB but this years free agent market is loaded with good young CBs. I just did a quick un-scientific google poll of 5 different sites that rated free agent CBs. Here is the general consensus. A.j. Bouye (26) is the clear #1 target. After that there is a group that includes Trumain Johnson (27), Malcolm Butler (27), Stephon Gilmore (26), Logan Ryan (26) and Mo Claiborne (27). Kirkpatrick (27) seems to be in a third tier that also includes Prince Amukamura (28), Deshawn Shead (29), and Captain Munnerlyn (29).

I think when it is all done Dre will be paid more like the guys in the second tier than the third. But I seriously doubt he comes close to the top 5 contracts for CBs this year. Teams looking to sign CBs are in good shape this year because there are a lot of good young guys that could hit the market, but it also drives down the contracts for all of the CBs. I am guessing Dre gets a deal that averages $10+million a year. And I think the Bengals need to pay him. But if just 2 or 3 of those other rop guys had re-signed and were not on the market Dre could be looking at close to $15 million a year. Teams overpay when talent is thin.

We can afford to pay Dre, Whit, and Zeitler all $10 million a year.

[Derrick]

(02-04-2017, 05:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He finished '17 ranked 6th in the league among CBs in yards per target (4.9).

Not saying he is an elite shut down corner, but he is among the better CBs in the league.  Check out his numbers compared to First Team All Pro Aqib Talib

Dre - 4.9 yards per pass, 1.4 YAC, 68 targets, 10 passes defended, 3 INT, 35 tackles, 11 tackle assists, 46 total tackles
Talib - 4.3 yards per pass, 1.4 YAC, 58 targets, 12 passes defended, 3 INT, 32 tackles, 11 tackle assists, 43 total tackles

Kirkpatrick is one of those players who has usually been grossly underrated by many Bengal fans.

Freddy Boy. Good stats. Kind of writes its own headline, doesn't it?

[BengalsRocker]

(02-04-2017, 05:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is funny how free agency works.  A player's value is often determined by who else is a free agent the same year. Dre is a very good CB but this years free agent market is loaded with good young CBs.  I just did a quick un-scientific google poll of 5 different sites that rated free agent CBs.  Here is the general consensus.  A.j. Bouye (26) is the clear #1 target.  After that there is a group that includes Trumain Johnson (27), Malcolm Butler (27), Stephon Gilmore (26), Logan Ryan (26) and Mo Claiborne (27).  Kirkpatrick (27) seems to be in a third tier that also includes Prince Amukamura (28), Deshawn Shead (29), and Captain Munnerlyn (29).

I think when it is all done Dre will be paid more like the guys in the second tier than the third.  But I seriously doubt he comes close to the top 5 contracts for CBs this year.  Teams looking to sign CBs are in good shape this year because there are a lot of good young guys that could hit the market, but it also drives down the contracts for all of the CBs.  I am guessing Dre gets a deal that averages $10+million a year.  And I think the Bengals need to pay him.  But if just 2 or 3 of those other rop guys had re-signed and were not on the market Dre could be looking at close to $15 million a year.  Teams overpay when talent is thin.

We can afford to pay Dre, Whit, and Zeitler all $10 million a year.

Good post Fred.

[Shake n Blake]

(02-04-2017, 05:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He finished '17 ranked 6th in the league among CBs in yards per target (4.9).

Not saying he is an elite shut down corner, but he is among the better CBs in the league.  Check out his numbers compared to First Team All Pro Aqib Talib

Dre - 4.9 yards per pass, 1.4 YAC, 68 targets, 10 passes defended, 3 INT, 35 tackles, 11 tackle assists, 46 total tackles
Talib - 4.3 yards per pass, 1.4 YAC, 58 targets, 12 passes defended, 3 INT, 32 tackles, 11 tackle assists, 43 total tackles

Kirkpatrick is one of those players who has usually been grossly underrated by many Bengal fans.

Good stuff, Fred. That said, DreKirk wasn't performing quite at this level until 2016. I'd say he was solid in 2015 and disappointing prior to that. I defended him last year from guys saying he sucked, but I wasn't totally confident in him long term. I'd say he won me over with his '16 performance, but I can also understand why some are still a bit skeptical.

That goes for FA as well. I would think teams would look at his full body of work. It's tough to justify elite money on one season of evidence that he "might" be a top notch CB. I'm hoping that makes him more affordable to bring back. I'd compare it to Andre Smith's first foray into FA. A good season or two that followed some disappointment and injuries. We wound up getting a bargain due to lack of interest from other teams.

Good point on the saturation of CBs available. That may drive down price as well.

[Jpoore]

(02-04-2017, 06:53 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Good stuff, Fred. That said, DreKirk wasn't performing quite at this level until 2016. I'd say he was solid in 2015 and disappointing prior to that. I defended him last year from guys saying he sucked, but I wasn't totally confident in him long term. I'd say he won me over with his '16 performance, but I can also understand why some are still a bit skeptical.

That goes for FA as well. I would think teams would look at his full body of work. It's tough to justify elite money on one season of evidence that he "might" be a top notch CB. I'm hoping that makes him more affordable to bring back. I'd compare it to Andre Smith's first foray into FA. A good season or two that followed some disappointment and injuries. We wound up getting a bargain due to lack of interest from other teams.

Good point on the saturation of CBs available. That may drive down price as well.

Well he really wasn't a full time starter except for 14 15 and 16. 14 was bad 15 was solid 16 was great. Imo he's trending upwards. I think we would take 8.5-9 per year same with z.

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-04-2017, 05:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We can afford to pay Dre, Whit, and Zeitler all $10 million a year.

But should we?  If Dre is a third tier CB that will likely get a second tier contract, I get it...it is somewhat because of need and familiarity of the system.  I also think he improved throughout last year, and the struggles early on had a lot to do with Williams lack of experience at the position.

I want Whit, and think he deserves at least the two year offer.

Zeitler?  What "tier" would he be in terms of talent?  Sure as hell not first tier.  I would argue not second tier (don't really care what PFF says about him...my eyes showed me a very average RG.  That player should not be paid $10 million per year.  I would much rather use those dollars on a CB to replace Jones and add veteran depth and go with a draft pick.

I have no idea what the Bengals feel about Westerman, but he never got a shot last year when Boling was down.  Dan Feeney is not only a likely upgrade at the position, but would cost a fraction of what Zeitler would.  I don't dislike him as a person, but I would really think twice before offering him ridiculous money.  Offer maybe $7 million per year, and stick to that.  

[Jpoore]

(02-05-2017, 08:06 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: But should we?  If Dre is a third tier CB that will likely get a second tier contract, I get it...it is somewhat because of need and familiarity of the system.  I also think he improved throughout last year, and the struggles early on had a lot to do with Williams lack of experience at the position.

I want Whit, and think he deserves at least the two year offer.

Zeitler?  What "tier" would he be in terms of talent?  Sure as hell not first tier.  I would argue not second tier (don't really care what PFF says about him...my eyes showed me a very average RG.  That player should not be paid $10 million per year.  I would much rather use those dollars on a CB to replace Jones and add veteran depth and go with a draft pick.

I have no idea what the Bengals feel about Westerman, but he never got a shot last year when Boling was down.  Dan Feeney is not only a likely upgrade at the position, but would cost a fraction of what Zeitler would.  I don't dislike him as a person, but I would really think twice before offering him ridiculous money.  Offer maybe $7 million per year, and stick to that.  

well he turned down 5.5 million. I would offer him 8 million. I would offer Dre k 8.5-9. Whit whatever he wants probably 2 year 17 mill. I would cut Sims malaluga and tj Johnson and sign a guy like Johnson or bouye and get that secondary locked up for the next 4-5 years. Won't have to use any more first rounders on corners then either. Zeitler is an elite guard just can't play between rg and center letting everyone through like every play is a screen.give him a Center I guarantee you see an all pro player next year at rg.

[Socal Bengals fan]

Zeitler is a good guard in his prime. Gotta keep him. Most sites have him in the top 10 of all free agents

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-05-2017, 08:35 AM)Jpoore Wrote: well he turned down 5.5 million. I would offer him 8 million. I would offer Dre k 8.5-9. Whit whatever he wants probably 2 year 17 mill. I would cut Sims malaluga and tj Johnson and sign a guy like Johnson or bouye and get that secondary locked up for the next 4-5 years. Won't have to use any more first rounders on corners then either. Zeitler is an elite guard just can't play between rg and center letting everyone through like every play is a screen.give him a Center I guarantee you see an all pro player next year at rg.

TJ Johnson is a Free Agent that the Bengals may let walk if they intend to address the Center position in the draft.  With Bodine's contract up next year, I think that would be a very wise more.  It would be wise regardless of his contract status, actually.

The way the Bengals afford a guy like Bouye is by cutting Adam Jones.  That is the first piece of the puzzle.  He will likely be (rightfully) suspended anyways.

I wouldn't go that high for Zeitler, but we will see. 

[Jpoore]

(02-05-2017, 03:46 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: TJ Johnson is a Free Agent that the Bengals may let walk if they intend to address the Center position in the draft.  With Bodine's contract up next year, I think that would be a very wise more.  It would be wise regardless of his contract status, actually.

The way the Bengals afford a guy like Bouye is by cutting Adam Jones.  That is the first piece of the puzzle.  He will likely be (rightfully) suspended anyways.

I wouldn't go that high for Zeitler, but we will see. 

My whole point with zeitler is don't lose him for a million or so. If ur close get him instead of trying to hand the job to someone ala ogbuehi.