Former Bengal HOF snub

[jfkbengals]

(02-05-2017, 07:31 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I am fine with Warner because he was a two-time MVP, took two different teams to the SB, winning won and almost winning the other. And his rag-to-riches story is a part of it as well. Plus I have always been a fan of him going back to that first Show on Turf year.

Dillon should be in there over Davis for the simple fact he was a better rb in his career. If Davis didnt have a dominant run blocking line with their zone scheme, he would have been just another dime a dozen back imo, though a good one.

TO should be in there period.

In regards to Kenny, only reason he should go is because of others already in there from the same era or prior. Otherwise he didnt do enough beyond the one MVP season which he went to the Super Bowl to merit him going, just my opinion tho.

He also had four NFL passing titles.  There is no reason he should not be in while contemporaries who are also without titles are in.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-05-2017, 07:34 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: There's an obvious name of an individual who was tried as a murdered and found not guilty thanks to the incompetence and admitted racial bias of the LAPD.  The Hall discussed at the time whether he should be stripped of the title.  But you use the plural there.  Who else?

I didn't realize Ray Lewis wasn't in yet, but he will be next year. Sadly, another case of the justice system falling though. 

[yellowxdiscipline]

Sorry but what's happening to Owens is disgusting, and petty. His play on the field should be the only thing that gets him in or keeps him out of the HOF, what's happening is obviously some petty ass shit from the voters.

[grampahol]

HOF seems to be a "good buddies" club by just about every standard and if you don't fit in the club ..well too bad. It's like Dennys coffee.  Sure it's pretty lousy, but it's a well known brand and over priced.. 

[BengalHawk62]

Can someone please explain to me why Jim Marshall is NOT in the Hall yet?  I know he's not a Bengal, but this has always bugged me.


VikesCentric: Jim Marshall's Hall of Fame case


By Bo Mitchell

Vikings fans have long been frustrated at the perceived injustices when in comes to Hall of Fame voting. One of those wrongs will presumably be righted on Saturday as Mick Tingelhoff hopefully gets his due, leaving one glaring omission from the Purple People Eaters.

Back in August, the Pro Football Hall of Fame Senior Selection Committee nominated Tingelhoff as their only finalist for consideration to join the class of 2015. The former Vikings center needs to garner 80 percent of the vote when the selection meeting is held on Saturday. The new inductees will be announced that night on the eve of the Super Bowl, and I fully expect Tingelhoff to finally get his place in Canton.

I explained Tingelhoff’s worthiness for the Hall of Fame back in August. In the comments section of said article, the name of the other prominent Vikings great not in the Hall of Fame naturally came up: Jim Marshall.

At the time I said I didn’t think Marshall had a strong case for the Hall. I called him a “borderline Hall of Famer.” That opinion aligned me with Hall of Fame voters -- who have yet to cast enough votes for Marshall to get him a bust in Canton -- and likely ticked off a few Vikings fans.

Believe me, I’d love to see Marshall make the Hall of Fame. I was a fan of his when he played, I recognize how important he was to the Vikings teams of the 1960s and 70s and he seems like a great guy by all accounts. I had the honor of meeting him once, many years ago, and I will never ever forget shaking his hand. It was like he was wearing a baseball mit. My hand disappeared up to the elbow inside his hand I think. At least that’s how I recall it. He’s a bigger than life man, great leader and was a great player.

I try to be objective about Hall of Fame matters, though. Marshall hasn’t played a game in more than 35 years and he isn’t in the Hall of Fame. He was a finalist for the Hall just once in that span (back in 2004). It’s difficult to spin that as a positive outlook for his Hall of Fame momentum.

The problem Marshall faces is that there aren’t a lot of counting stats to use when making his case. The two things defensive ends should be best known for are sacks and tackles. That’s their primary function. Unfortunately, sacks didn’t become recognized as an official NFL stat until 1982, which is three years after Marshall played his final game. And tackles still aren’t an official stat.

Without gaudy numbers to make his case, voters are left to look at other criteria such as Pro Bowl and All Pro selections and postseason success. That’s where the bigger problems arise. For all his greatness, Marshall made the Pro Bowl only twice and was never selected All-Pro. It’s tough to make a case that someone was among the greatest of all time when he was never deemed the best at his position in any season in which he played. And Marshall played 20 seasons.

As if that’s not enough to overcome, his teams lost four Super Bowls and the Vikings’ famed Purple People Eaters didn’t fare well in any of the three.

Throw in one of the most notorious gaffes in sports history back in 1964 -- his infamous “Wrong Way Run” in which he scored a safety for the 49ers, thinking he had run in a fumble recovery for a touchdown -- and you have quite a argument against his enshrinement, with a little embarrassing gravy on top.

I have always rested my case after considering all those obstacles.

Like any football fan or observer or media member, however, I’m allowed to change my opinion -- to let it evolve over time.

To that end, there’s a solid case that can be made in favor of Marshall being a Hall of Famer when you consider some more facts.

He was, without question, one of the most durable players of all time in any sport. He set NFL records with 282 consecutive games played and 270 consecutive starts. Both are still records for defensive ends. Marshall never missed a game. He also holds the NFL record for opponents’ fumbles recovered with 29.

While his sack total is not official, Marshall is credited with 127 sacks while with the Vikings, which is the second most in team history behind Hall of Famer Carl Eller. Consider this: in the 33 years since sacks started being counted as an official stat, only 13 players have recorded more than 127 sacks. Eight of those 13 players are in the Hall of Fame, and the other five (Kevin Greene, Jason Taylor, John Abraham, Jared Allen and Leslie O’Neal) have solid to slam dunk Hall credentials.

In light of his impressive, though unofficial, sack total, his record number of fumble recoveries and unmatched toughness, a solid Hall of Fame case can be made.

But what about the lack of Pro Bowl and All-Pro honors?

That’s always going to hurt his case, but it’s worth noting that he had Hall of Fame contemporaries such as teammate Carl Eller plus Elvin Bethea, Jack Youngblood, Willie Davis and of course Deacon Jones. There’s not a lot of elbow room at the All-Pro table when your career overlaps with those guys.

Only six Minnesota Vikings have ever had their number retired. The late Korey Stringer is one. Three others are in the Hall of Fame (Fran Tarkenton, Alan Page, Cris Carter) and a fourth (Tingelhoff) could join them on Saturday.

The only other Viking to have his number retired is Marshall -- the Vikings’ captain for 17 years.

John Randle and Randall McDaniel haven’t had their numbers retired. Neither have Ron Yary, Gary Zimmerman, Chris Doleman or Paul Krause. They’re all in the Hall of Fame, though. As is the man who coached most of those guys, Bud Grant.

Coach Grant was quoted extensively in the press release that accompanied the announcement of Marshall’s number being retired back on Nov. 28, 1999.

“Many times people ask coaches who their greatest player was,” Grant said. “It’s normally very hard to choose, but I don’t hesitate to say Jim Marshall.”

Who am I to disagree with Bud?

Maybe Marshall isn’t an “inner ring” Hall of Famer, but such a thing doesn’t actually exist; and if it did, there wouldn’t be many included anyway. The more I’m able to put his accomplishments into perspective, however, the harder it is for me to deny that Jim Marshall worthy of being enshrined.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-09-2017, 02:09 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: Can someone please explain to me why Jim Marshall is NOT in the Hall yet?  I know he's not a Bengal, but this has always bugged me.


VikesCentric: Jim Marshall's Hall of Fame case


By Bo Mitchell

Vikings fans have long been frustrated at the perceived injustices when in comes to Hall of Fame voting. One of those wrongs will presumably be righted on Saturday as Mick Tingelhoff hopefully gets his due, leaving one glaring omission from the Purple People Eaters.

Back in August, the Pro Football Hall of Fame Senior Selection Committee nominated Tingelhoff as their only finalist for consideration to join the class of 2015. The former Vikings center needs to garner 80 percent of the vote when the selection meeting is held on Saturday. The new inductees will be announced that night on the eve of the Super Bowl, and I fully expect Tingelhoff to finally get his place in Canton.

I explained Tingelhoff’s worthiness for the Hall of Fame back in August. In the comments section of said article, the name of the other prominent Vikings great not in the Hall of Fame naturally came up: Jim Marshall.

At the time I said I didn’t think Marshall had a strong case for the Hall. I called him a “borderline Hall of Famer.” That opinion aligned me with Hall of Fame voters -- who have yet to cast enough votes for Marshall to get him a bust in Canton -- and likely ticked off a few Vikings fans.

Believe me, I’d love to see Marshall make the Hall of Fame. I was a fan of his when he played, I recognize how important he was to the Vikings teams of the 1960s and 70s and he seems like a great guy by all accounts. I had the honor of meeting him once, many years ago, and I will never ever forget shaking his hand. It was like he was wearing a baseball mit. My hand disappeared up to the elbow inside his hand I think. At least that’s how I recall it. He’s a bigger than life man, great leader and was a great player.

I try to be objective about Hall of Fame matters, though. Marshall hasn’t played a game in more than 35 years and he isn’t in the Hall of Fame. He was a finalist for the Hall just once in that span (back in 2004). It’s difficult to spin that as a positive outlook for his Hall of Fame momentum.

The problem Marshall faces is that there aren’t a lot of counting stats to use when making his case. The two things defensive ends should be best known for are sacks and tackles. That’s their primary function. Unfortunately, sacks didn’t become recognized as an official NFL stat until 1982, which is three years after Marshall played his final game. And tackles still aren’t an official stat.

Without gaudy numbers to make his case, voters are left to look at other criteria such as Pro Bowl and All Pro selections and postseason success. That’s where the bigger problems arise. For all his greatness, Marshall made the Pro Bowl only twice and was never selected All-Pro. It’s tough to make a case that someone was among the greatest of all time when he was never deemed the best at his position in any season in which he played. And Marshall played 20 seasons.

As if that’s not enough to overcome, his teams lost four Super Bowls and the Vikings’ famed Purple People Eaters didn’t fare well in any of the three.

Throw in one of the most notorious gaffes in sports history back in 1964 -- his infamous “Wrong Way Run” in which he scored a safety for the 49ers, thinking he had run in a fumble recovery for a touchdown -- and you have quite a argument against his enshrinement, with a little embarrassing gravy on top.

I have always rested my case after considering all those obstacles.

Like any football fan or observer or media member, however, I’m allowed to change my opinion -- to let it evolve over time.

To that end, there’s a solid case that can be made in favor of Marshall being a Hall of Famer when you consider some more facts.

He was, without question, one of the most durable players of all time in any sport. He set NFL records with 282 consecutive games played and 270 consecutive starts. Both are still records for defensive ends. Marshall never missed a game. He also holds the NFL record for opponents’ fumbles recovered with 29.

While his sack total is not official, Marshall is credited with 127 sacks while with the Vikings, which is the second most in team history behind Hall of Famer Carl Eller. Consider this: in the 33 years since sacks started being counted as an official stat, only 13 players have recorded more than 127 sacks. Eight of those 13 players are in the Hall of Fame, and the other five (Kevin Greene, Jason Taylor, John Abraham, Jared Allen and Leslie O’Neal) have solid to slam dunk Hall credentials.

In light of his impressive, though unofficial, sack total, his record number of fumble recoveries and unmatched toughness, a solid Hall of Fame case can be made.

But what about the lack of Pro Bowl and All-Pro honors?

That’s always going to hurt his case, but it’s worth noting that he had Hall of Fame contemporaries such as teammate Carl Eller plus Elvin Bethea, Jack Youngblood, Willie Davis and of course Deacon Jones. There’s not a lot of elbow room at the All-Pro table when your career overlaps with those guys.

Only six Minnesota Vikings have ever had their number retired. The late Korey Stringer is one. Three others are in the Hall of Fame (Fran Tarkenton, Alan Page, Cris Carter) and a fourth (Tingelhoff) could join them on Saturday.

The only other Viking to have his number retired is Marshall -- the Vikings’ captain for 17 years.

John Randle and Randall McDaniel haven’t had their numbers retired. Neither have Ron Yary, Gary Zimmerman, Chris Doleman or Paul Krause. They’re all in the Hall of Fame, though. As is the man who coached most of those guys, Bud Grant.

Coach Grant was quoted extensively in the press release that accompanied the announcement of Marshall’s number being retired back on Nov. 28, 1999.

“Many times people ask coaches who their greatest player was,” Grant said. “It’s normally very hard to choose, but I don’t hesitate to say Jim Marshall.”

Who am I to disagree with Bud?

Maybe Marshall isn’t an “inner ring” Hall of Famer, but such a thing doesn’t actually exist; and if it did, there wouldn’t be many included anyway. The more I’m able to put his accomplishments into perspective, however, the harder it is for me to deny that Jim Marshall worthy of being enshrined.

I never understood that either.  To me, it's the biggest snub of all time.  I get that he wasn't an exceptionally flashy kinda guy....and was maybe a bit overshadowed by Eller and Page, but the man just kept coming.....for 20 years.  The epitome of a lunch pail/grinder kind of player.  He should definitely be in the HOF.

[bengals67]

TO not getting in is ridiculous

[WeezyBengal]

(02-05-2017, 01:34 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Kurt Warner getting in is a real head scratcher.  For as good as he was at his peak, he was equally bad a stretch of those years.  He was a volume passer, who was blessed to be in a Mike Martz offense that was 10 years ahead of its time, surrounded by Marshall Caulk, Isaac Bruce, and Tory Holt. Then he was paired with an in their prime Fitz and Boldin.

Simply put, he wasn't that good.

Terrelle Davis was a good running back on a great team, who had two great years. That's it.

These guys have no business getting in over TO.

You cant hold it against a guy for having talent around him. Cmon man. 

[Shake n Blake]

(02-09-2017, 02:28 PM)bengals67 Wrote: TO not getting in is ridiculous

It seems they're trying to break him and get him to show contrition.

As if that somehow changes whether his career was HOF worthy. They're being just as immature as TO supposedly was, ironically.

[Millhouse]

The thing that is hypocritical with the HoF & T.O., is that there are inductees from decades past that were racists, alcoholics, drug abusers, other abusers, and other things that are worse than anything T.O. ever did. Some say he was a locker-room cancer, but there are plenty of others that were actually in the same locker rooms that said he was anything but and was a good teammate behind the cameras.

All I know is if I was choosing an all-time team (passing wise), my 3 receivers would be T.O., Moss, and Rice.