Is Brady unquestionably the best ever?

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(02-06-2017, 10:13 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm going with Joe Montana, as he never had rules established to protect QBs, from crying about being hit too hard, too much. Folks can bring up the salary cap argument all they want to, but the truth is the teams that Montana played against had the same talent stocking options as the 49ers.

...and he beat the Bengals twice in the Super Bowl. That should count double for being the GOAT.

[Joelist]

Don't forget Brady missed an entire season with a blown out knee.

Also, fact is that Montana had a better cast around him most of the time, with several Hall of Famers. Brady has worked with an interchangeable cast of players and succeeded. He does play in a good system, but what is interesting is that it is almost a non-system. The Pats constantly change things up and do different things; what makes them so good is the coaching. They pretty much don't make mistakes. The receivers run the route correctly, the line blocks the right gaps, the blitz pickups work correctly and so on. In essence, there may be an occasional turnover but what they do is EXECUTE their offense correctly virtually all the time.

[Bengalsrob]

(02-07-2017, 12:57 AM)Joelist Wrote: Don't forget Brady missed an entire season with a blown out knee.

Also, fact is that Montana had a better cast around him most of the time, with several Hall of Famers. Brady has worked with an interchangeable cast of players and succeeded. He does play in a good system, but what is interesting is that it is almost a non-system. The Pats constantly change things up and do different things; what makes them so good is the coaching. They pretty much don't make mistakes. The receivers run the route correctly, the line blocks the right gaps, the blitz pickups work correctly and so on. In essence, there may be an occasional turnover but what they do is EXECUTE their offense correctly virtually all the time.

Yes, they execute their system, and it's a combination of solid QB play, game planning, and dare I say it around here?? Halftime adjustments! It's also an uncanny ability to feature a player no one expects to do much destroying the opposition, and taking whatever the other team gives you. White had done virtually nothing all year, and suddenly he's all-pro; these things don't accidentally happen, and they happen virtually every week with the Patriots. They never happen with the Bengals,it seems. As to the GOAT, does it really matter? Brady is darn good, as was Montana, and many others. It's a rare combination of player/coach, the latter which we haven't seen here and never will, as long as we cling to Marvin to preserve the stability of futility. As someone said in a different thread I believe, it looks like Marvin gave the halftime speech to the Falcons. but I don't believe that for a minute because they did score in the second half! As for Bellichick, everybody points to the Browns and says he wasn't that good, but wait a minute. In 1995, under him, the Browns went 11-5 AND won a playoff game. The next year after a 4-4 start Modell moved the team, and fired Bellichick, it's the curse of the Browns to live with forever.

[Shake n Blake]

(02-06-2017, 10:56 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. I guess in response to your OP, there will always be people who question who is the GOAT. 

I just don't think that playing with one coach and staying relatively healthy throughout a career should be considered to Brady's detriment. Yes, passing 40k yards in Montana's era was beastly. Who is to say that passing 60k in this era isn't? Or passing for 50 TDs in a season? Or leading a team to a 16-0 regular season? Or a >2% INT ratio even with all the passing? 


There is really no wrong answer here, but I'll chalk it up to nostalgia factor. Kinda like no matter how good the next Mario Kart game is, the SNES one is still the best. 

I wasn't saying Brady staying healthy and keeping his HC is a bad thing. I was suggesting that Montana would've won a lot more had he stayed in SF and stayed healthy with the same HC. Heck, a withered Montana led the Chiefs to the AFC title game, so at least we know Montana wasn't a product of system - can't say the same for Brady. But yeah, my point was that Montana was having back surgeries due to brutal hits. Meanwhile, if you sneeze on Brady it's a flag. I just wonder how many rings Joe could've produced if he were afforded such protection.

Btw, the video game analogy is bad. Nostalgia isn't making him look better. The career speaks for itself. That's like saying nostalgia makes people think Jordan is better than Lebron. But to continue with gaming analogies, it's like saying Mario Sunshine was better than Mario 3. Sure, there's nostalgia for Mario 3, but it really is just a better game than it's more recent counterpart.

Some are always victims of the moment. Last year Steph Curry was getting compared to Jordan. Seems ridiculous now. Dude isn't even the leader of his own team anymore. But people are always stuck in the now. Unlike Curry, Brady has earned his way into the discussion, but most just get caught up in the moment and think now is always the best we've seen.

But yeah, agree to disagree. :smirk:

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

If the Pats fell on their face every time Brady went down, I would say it was definitely all him.  However, they won an AFCCG when Drew Bledsoe had to come off the bench cold, Matt freakin Cassell went 11-5, they went 3-1 this year with Garrapolo and some cat I still can't even name.  I equate it to Urban Meyer's QBs at the college level.....somewhat.

Let's play this scenario:

If Brady comes to Cincy, under Mediocre Marv and His Merry Band of Tenured Bums instead of being drafted by the Pats, does he even win one SB?

By contrast, given the last few rosters in Cincy, what does Belichick do with them?

Objectively speaking, I think we all know the answer to that.

[*Awful Llama*]

(02-07-2017, 02:58 PM)Wyche Wrote: If the Pats fell on their face every time Brady went down, I would say it was definitely all him.  However, they won an AFCCG when Drew Bledsoe had to come off the bench cold, Matt freakin Cassell went 11-5, they went 3-1 this year with Garrapolo and some cat I still can't even name.  I equate it to Urban Meyer's QBs at the college level.....somewhat.

Let's play this scenario:

If Brady comes to Cincy, under Mediocre Marv and His Merry Band of Tenured Bums instead of being drafted by the Pats, does he even win one SB?

By contrast, given the last few rosters in Cincy, what does Belichick do with them?

Objectively speaking, I think we all know the answer to that.

I know, but, damn, it would been hella fun to watch Brady throwing to Chad, Housh, Henry and later on, Green. Would we have gotten a Lombardi?  Maybe not, but we'd have won the division a couple more times and had gotten at least a few playoff wins, and maybe a trip to the SB.  As for BB, somewhere in the multiverse is a Bengals team with BB as its HC.  I'm happy for that Bengal fanbase.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-07-2017, 09:50 PM)Awful Llama Wrote: I know, but, damn, it would been hella fun to watch Brady throwing to Chad, Housh, Henry and later on, Green. Would we have gotten a Lombardi?  Maybe not, but we'd have won the division a couple more times and had gotten at least a few playoff wins, and maybe a trip to the SB.  As for BB, somewhere in the multiverse is a Bengals team with BB as its HC.  I'm happy for that Bengal fanbase.  

I'm not sure Tom would have fared any better in Bratkowskis system.  Probably Grudens.....but the team implosions would hold him back as well....imo.  Also....this o line can't give 5-6 seconds consistently like he's used to.  It hasn't been able to do that since around '06.  I think fans would be dumping trash and booing him too.  This team is THAT undisciplined.....and that poorly coached.

[seahawkscheat]

next year the patriots will trade hightower for a 3rd round pick and the team wont miss a step

[CJD]

Yes.

[*bengalfan74*]

(02-06-2017, 03:42 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I would say he is the best QB of the modern era (late 90s to today). Montana was the best QB of the 80s to 90s era. Staubach of the 70s era. And Johnny Unitas of the 60s.

^This^

[BengalYankee]

Otto Graham is the BEST QB of all time.

7 Championships

Played in 10 straight Championships....

[Shake n Blake]

Even if you only look at this era, I can't say with 100% conviction that Brady is the best. What if Peyton or Rodgers spent their careers with Belichick, and Brady was drafted by some other team? Peyton or Rodgers would probably have a fist full of rings, and I certainly don't think Brady would have 5.

[McC]

I'd say he's at least got to be 1b to anyone's 1a.

[GMDino]

(02-10-2017, 05:14 AM)BengalYankee Wrote: Otto Graham is the BEST QB of all time.

7 Championships

Played in 10 straight Championships....

And that's why I can't say "unquestionably" the GOAT.

So many factors go into that.

We're still arguing about Jim Brown vs Walter Payton vs Barry Sanders vs Emmitt Smith

Smith has the all time yards and most Super Bowls...but is the GOAT.  Hell no in my opinion.

[GMDino]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000785182/article/joe-montana-wont-call-tom-brady-the-greatest-ever

Quote:Above all else, Super Bowl LI put an end to the age-old debate over the best quarterback on Planet Earth.

That title goes to five-time champion Tom Brady of the Patriots, right?

Not according to Joe Montana, the Hall of Fame passer and 49ers legend who nimbly danced around the question during a recent interview.

"I mean, he's obviously having a tremendous career. I think it's just hard to put anyone in that bucket," Montana said of Brady during an appearance on Hallmark Channel's "Home & Family" show, per TMZ.

"Even before he got five, you look back to some of the guys some people don't even know. Sammy Baugh or Otto Graham, I can't remember which one, but one of them won like seven or nine championships -- and so far ahead of their time," Montana said. "It's hard to compare guys from then to now, how they would compare here and we would compare then."

For the record, Baugh led the Redskins to five title games and a pair of championships during a career that stretched from 1937 to 1952. Graham is the wonder Montana pointed to, as the former Browns star guided Cleveland to four championships in the All-America Football Conference and three NFL titles during a raucous 10-year run with the team from 1946 to 1955.

Having won four Super Bowl titles of his own, Montana believes the "greatest quarterback" debate remains alive and well.

"I still can't say that of -- even though people say it and I appreciate it -- I still can't say that of myself because of just what I said," noted Montana. "It's hard."

"At home you're saying that all the time!" joked his wife, Jennifer.

"And don't you forget it," Montana said.

Said Jennifer: "We are reminded constantly."

Not going quietly into the night: Joe Montana.

[Tiger Teeth]

My opinion; he's in the group of about 5 guys to be considered G.O.A.T. Montana, Marino, Staubach, and Manning would round out that list. Just off the top of my head.

[Shake n Blake]

(02-15-2017, 05:29 PM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: My opinion; he's in the group of about 5 guys to be considered G.O.A.T.  Montana, Marino, Staubach, and Manning would round out that list.  Just off the top of my head.

Johnny U, Otto Graham, Slingin Sammy Baugh and Bart Starr also deserve mention, IMO.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-16-2017, 11:54 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Johnny U, Otto Graham, Slingin Sammy Baugh and Bart Starr also deserve mention, IMO.

Yes, but Starr could be classified as the first Brady....loaded roster, and a coaching legend.

[Jpoore]

Peyton Manning is the g.o.a.t.

[Shake n Blake]

(02-17-2017, 08:57 AM)Jpoore Wrote: Peyton Manning is the g.o.a.t.

It felt like Peyton was creeping into the discussion just a couple years ago, but Brady getting one for his thumb will unfortunately overshadow anything Peyton did. Personally, I think if all things were equal, Peyton was far better. You could literally throw Peyton on any team, and that team would at least make the playoffs. I really don't feel that way about Brady. Tom benefited greatly from his situation. Just imagine if Peyton played his entire career for Belichick...