2020 Election

[hollodero]

(09-24-2020, 12:15 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: The same people whining about Trump's statements ignore Democrats never accepted the results of the election starting with the tent lady Hillary Clinton. Look back at one of the debates, the question was asked, will you accept the results of the election?
Trump said same thing he said at his press conference, it depends if it is was a fair election. HRC vilified him, then lost and immediately divided the company by leading the anti Trump presidency.

So, please GTHO with your holier than now stances. Same group who could care less about almost 2400 abortions per day just in the US (leader of supposed morale integrity in the world), of those 80% are minorities. Why do liberals have no concern for murder of black babies, but care when less than 25 black men are killed in police shootings each year? And most of those shootings, just like Breanna Taylor prove to be legal and justified. Her death was tragic, but justice will prevail in the end. Blowing up cities, rioting, looting businesses and shooting and killing police officers when you don't understand the law and respect the law will not heal or fix anything. Democrats fuel the hatred and racial divide, did under Obama for 8 years and continue to do it with the MSM as their partner.

If Trump is a racist, please explain how Obama did nothing for the black and hispanic economy, yet Trump prior to pandemic had record employment, wages increasing and got the blacks out of jail Biden and Bill Clinton put in jail. He is the worst racist to ever live based on facts. A racist does not help minorities period.

What are you even talking about. Hillary conceded. “Donald Trump is going to be our president. We owe him an open mind and a chance to lead.” That she did not start to run around with a MAGA hat, well, that is not extraordinary in any way.

I'll take a pass on the other comments of yours, since they are quite aggressive and do not address the matter at hand.

[GMDino]

(09-24-2020, 12:30 PM)PhilHos Wrote: What has he DONE to dismantle democracy? Yes, he's said some "bad" things (bad in quotes because I'm putting it VERY mildly) and while that's bad enough, what has he ACTUALLY done to dismantle democracy? 

This is the "They're just words" defense that doesn't work because those words are coming from the POTUS and 40% of the population apparently believes his is 100% truthful with them.

If he was Joe Q Public he'd just be another conspiracy nut.  Instead his words carry weight.

And he personality is such that his words underlie what his behaviors will be. 

I mean this is a guy who used a sharpie to pretend he wasn't wrong about where a hurricane might land.  I firmly believe he would do whatever he thought he could to invalidate the election results.  Whether he actually does or not remains to be seen.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-24-2020, 12:36 PM)Nately120 Wrote: The quick answer is that he is using his platform and influence to reduce citizens confidence in the democratic process and impede the processes by which people vote.

No, sorry, that's just spin on the part of whomever is making that argument. I need something more substantial for a serious accusation of "dismantling democracy". 

[*Nately120*]

(09-24-2020, 12:38 PM)GMDino Wrote: This is the "They're just words" defense that doesn't work because those words are coming from the POTUS and 40% of the population apparently believes his is 100% truthful with them.

If he was Joe Q Public he'd just be another conspiracy nut.  Instead his words carry weight.

And he personality is such that his words underlie what his behaviors will be. 

This is what is so unique and strange about Trump.  Ronald Reagan never said that he should be president for life and Walter Mondale didn't go into the 84 election saying "Of course Reagan is going to win, he's cheating" and so on.  This notion that our democratic system that we claim to love so much is just a fraud-riddled pile of crap didn't rear its ugly head until recently.

It's just disheartening to hear a presidential candidate/president spend so much time and use so much of his power to lament that this country doesn't just have a ruling class like it did before we fought for our independence.  It almost boggles the mind.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-24-2020, 12:38 PM)GMDino Wrote: This is the "They're just words" defense that doesn't work because those words are coming from the POTUS and 40% of the population apparently believes his is 100% truthful with them.

If he was Joe Q Public he'd just be another conspiracy nut.  Instead his words carry weight.

And he personality is such that his words underlie what his behaviors will be. 

I mean this is a guy who used a sharpie to pretend he wasn't wrong about where a hurricane might land.  I firmly believe he would do whatever he thought he could to invalidate the election results.  Whether he actually does or not remains to be seen.

Yes, his words carry weight, but what has he done to dismantle democracy? Has he told people not to vote? To not bother? I mean, we know he told people to vote twice, which even in jest was wrong, but what has he done to dismantle democracy? That's a serious accusation.

[*Nately120*]

(09-24-2020, 12:41 PM)PhilHos Wrote: No, sorry, that's just spin on the part of whomever is making that argument. I need something more substantial for a serious accusation of "dismantling democracy". 

That's fine...again I hope I'm just insane and wrong but to me showing that Trump is dismantling democracy is like showing someone that water is wet.  The issue most people are debating is whether you agree that Trump using his power to tilt things in his favor is for the best or not.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-24-2020, 12:45 PM)Nately120 Wrote: That's fine...again I hope I'm just insane and wrong but to me showing that Trump is dismantling democracy is like showing someone that water is wet.  The issue most people are debating is whether you agree that Trump using his power to tilt things in his favor is for the best or not

I disagree with your first sentence, but I would like you to show me how Trump has used his power to tilt things in his favor?

[hollodero]

(09-24-2020, 12:41 PM)PhilHos Wrote: No, sorry, that's just spin on the part of whomever is making that argument. I need something more substantial for a serious accusation of "dismantling democracy". 

How about trying to kneecap the post office so the mail-in ballots might not arrive in time - and openly saying so?
What is it with claiming there's horrendous voter fraud by the millions without a shred of evidence, only for millions of supporters to believe just that? Is that dangerous?
Musing about postponing the election, any opinions on that?
Falling in love with Kim, claiming how greatly he keeps everyone in order, claiming that the China model of presidency for life is cool, tweeting about Trump 2024, 2028 and so on... any thoughts on that?
Or what about Barr firing every prosecutor he can that digs into Trump world. That substantial in any way?

[*Nately120*]

(09-24-2020, 12:46 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I disagree with your first sentence, but I would like you to show me how Trump has used his power to tilt things in his favor?

He's convinced a significant number of people in this country that there is no legitimate way this country could elect anyone other than him, for a start.

[Big Boss]

(09-24-2020, 12:44 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes, his words carry weight, but what has he done to dismantle democracy? Has he told people not to vote? To not bother? I mean, we know he told people to vote twice, which even in jest was wrong, but what has he done to dismantle democracy? That's a serious accusation.

He's told people not to trust the election results if he loses.  His base 100% believes him.

He is consistently undermining our electoral process.  Sowing doubt into one of our most important democratic institutions. Just words for now, but you're being deliberately obtuse if you think things will go smoothly should he lose in November. And what about his deliberate handicapping of USPS, where he flatly admitted it was to hamper mail-in voting? There's an action, not just words.   

You suggested in an earlier post that he'll concede if it is a fair election, and that's why he's taking a "wait and see" approach. Okay, how are we proving that out? All evidence to date shows that voting fraud is not a legitimate issue, so why are we looking for a problem that simply has not presented itself? Oh, because the results don't favor him. And all the while he's telling millions of his voters that the election was rigged against them. Oh yeah, TOTALLY harmless with no possible ramifications whatsoever.

Words hold power. And when words sow deep seeds of distrust in our country's election process, that's a genuine cause for alarm.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-24-2020, 12:47 PM)hollodero Wrote: How about trying to kneecap the post office so the mail-in ballots might not arrive in time - and openly saying so?

What specifically did he do to "kneecap" the post office?

(09-24-2020, 12:47 PM)hollodero Wrote: What is it with claiming there's horrendous voter fraud by the millions without a shred of evidence, only for millions of supporters to believe just that? Is that dangerous?

Dangerous how? So people think Biden isn't legitimate? What then? They whine and complain and push for impeachment? 

But again, these are WORDS. These alone are not "dsimantling democracy".

(09-24-2020, 12:47 PM)hollodero Wrote: Musing about postponing the election, any opinions on that?

Stupid but probably doesn't bring it up if there's no pandemic. Also note he never mused about CANCELLING the election.


But again, these are WORDS. These alone are not "dsimantling democracy".

(09-24-2020, 12:47 PM)hollodero Wrote: Falling in love with Kim, claiming how greatly he keeps everyone in order, claiming that the China model of presidency for life is cool, tweeting about Trump 2024, 2028 and so on... any thoughts on that?

Words. 

(09-24-2020, 12:47 PM)hollodero Wrote: Or what about Barr firing every prosecutor he can that digs into Trump world. That substantial in any way?

That's Barr, not Trump. I asked what TRUMP has done to "dismantle democracy". Not what he's said that makes it seem like he doesn't like democracy.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-24-2020, 12:48 PM)Big Boss Wrote: He's told people not to trust the election results if he loses.  His base 100% believes him.  

Again, words.

(09-24-2020, 12:48 PM)Big Boss Wrote: He is consistently undermining our electoral process.  

How? What has he DONE to undermine the electoral process?

(09-24-2020, 12:48 PM)Big Boss Wrote: Words hold power.  And when words sow deep seeds of distrust in our country's election process, that's a genuine cause for alarm.

Words do hold power. Do you honestly think that there is anything that Trump will say that will keep someone from voting? If anything, because of the stupid shit he's said, it sounds like MORE people will be voting. Pretty stupid way to dismantle democracy, wouldn't you say?

[Big Boss]

(09-24-2020, 01:06 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Words do hold power. Do you honestly think that there is anything that Trump will say that will keep someone from voting? If anything, because of the stupid shit he's said, it sounds like MORE people will be voting. Pretty stupid way to dismantle democracy, wouldn't you say?

So what exactly are you envisioning on November 3rd if Biden's declared the winner?  Just curious.  

[*bfine32*]

(09-24-2020, 01:09 PM)Big Boss Wrote: So what exactly are you envisioning on November 3rd if Biden's declared the winner?  Just curious.  

Depends. Does Trump win the popular vote?



Ok, that was bad. I expect him to say he was cheated and I expect him to state he's going to launch an investigation. Then I expect a peaceful; albeit contentious transition of power.  

[*Nately120*]

(09-24-2020, 01:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Depends. Does Trump win the popular vote?

All joking aside, how plausible is it in our current system for a democrat to win the EC but lose the popular vote?  I won't say it's impossible, but it's seems like a genuine longshot. I'd sooner expect Trump to win CA and Biden to win TX.

[*bfine32*]

(09-24-2020, 01:18 PM)Nately120 Wrote: All joking aside, how plausible is it in our current system for a democrat to win the EC but lose the popular vote?  I won't say it's impossible, but it's seems like a genuine longshot.  I'd sooner expect Trump to win CA and Biden to win TX.

Extremely unlikely, but it would be entertaining and in life sometimes that's the best you can get. 

I'm still holding out hope that Trump nominates Khamala Harris for SCOTUS. 

[*Nately120*]

(09-24-2020, 01:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Extremely unlikely, but it would be entertaining and in life sometimes that's the best you can get. 

I'm still holding out hope that Trump nominates Khamala Harris for SCOTUS. 

It would be interesting to see how Trump's supporters would handle being the ones who got the most votes but didn't win.

[Mickeypoo]

(09-24-2020, 01:28 PM)Nately120 Wrote: It would be interesting to see how Trump's supporters would handle being the ones who got the most votes but didn't win.

Fine with me.  That's how our system works.  The total number of votes is irrelevant and it's like that for a reason, win or lose.

[hollodero]

(09-24-2020, 01:02 PM)PhilHos Wrote: What specifically did he do to "kneecap" the post office?

He stripped their funding, he put a confidante on the postmaster general post (that did not refute to scrap machines and whatnot), and then he publicly said that well, they do not have funding now, guess we can't do mail-in voting. How much more specific does it need to get?

(09-24-2020, 01:02 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Dangerous how? So people think Biden isn't legitimate? What then? They whine and complain and push for impeachment? 

I don't know. Maybe they whine. Maybe some would go further, if Trump tells them to do so, that they were betrayed by dark, unamerican forces and it's about defending the homeland. I expect this to happen, but I don't know. I know it's dangerous.

(09-24-2020, 01:02 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Stupid but probably doesn't bring it up if there's no pandemic. Also note he never mused about CANCELLING the election.

Yeah, for he got unexpected pushback.

(09-24-2020, 01:02 PM)PhilHos Wrote: But again, these are WORDS. These alone are not "dsimantling democracy".
Words. 

Yeah, some are "words", that doesn't mean the things he says are irrelevant. Words have power. Eg. when he says there are millions of illegal votes collected by the evil deep state Dems and people get worked up because they believe it, those words are not harmless. And if someone then does something in the name of what Trump says, that would be on Trump.

(09-24-2020, 01:02 PM)PhilHos Wrote: That's Barr, not Trump. I asked what TRUMP has done to "dismantle democracy". Not what he's said that makes it seem like he doesn't like democracy.

This leaves me baffled. Burr is Trump's guy, his nominee, his AG buddy. Of course what Barr does falls back on Trump, don't act like these two men have nothing to do with each other.
I mean, I could say "he nominates people like Barr that then happen to do his bidding in a blatantly irresponsible manner" so it directly addresses Trump.

[*Nately120*]

(09-24-2020, 01:41 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: Fine with me.  That's how our system works.  The total number of votes is irrelevant and it's like that for a reason, win or lose.

I think you'd be in the minority.  I can't imagine Trump supporters accepting getting more votes but losing because "that's the way the system works" given how being furious about "the system" is the whole reason Trump is even president in the first place.

I also don't find it all that unreasonable that democrats were upset their candidate got more votes but lost.  That seems pretty natural to me, honestly.