8 homicides in 1 day.

[StLucieBengal]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-chicago-violence-end-of-summer-met-20150904-story.html

Welcome to Chicago.... Where gun restrictions are making the difference.

Quote: A bloody end to the summer pushed the rise in homicides to 23 percent by Thursday, up from a 14 percent increase as of June 1. On Wednesday alone, eight people were shot to death in homicides, the most in a single day in Chicago in more than 12 years.

For a second consecutive year, shooting incidents are on the rise, to 1,625 so far this year, up more than 17 percent from 1,384 a year earlier.

[GMDino]

(09-07-2015, 04:38 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-chicago-violence-end-of-summer-met-20150904-story.html

Welcome to Chicago....  Where gun restrictions are making the difference.  

Well we certainly should let those savage immigrate here!

Wait...what?

Gun restrictions?  You silly man...

[Johnny Cupcakes]

In comparison, you could look at the city of Milwaukee, who has some of the lightest gun laws in the country. Where you are allowed to carry either open or concealed......where you do not need a permit to purchase, a license to operate, or a registration to own.....where there are no assault weapon or magazine restrictions, and things such as the castle doctrine are in place. We're talking about a city that ranked 9th in violent crime rate in 2013, then more than doubled the murder rate from last year to this year (YTD), where police chief Edward Flynn has cited the cities' "absurdly weak gun laws" for the rise in homicides.

But light gun laws supposedly stop this violent crime, or so the gun-nut right wing freedom fighters tell us.

OR...we could set bias aside, and look at both of these cities and make the conclusion that neither heavy gun laws nor light gun laws have an effect on how violent segments of the population are going to act. Regardless of your political agenda, gun laws (either way) don't seem to have an effect. It's a cultural problem and a mental health problem, and has little to do with whether or not citizens can lawfully own and carry guns.

[Vas Deferens]

(09-07-2015, 04:35 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: OR...we could set bias aside, and look at both of this cities and make the conclusion that neither heavy gun laws nor light gun laws have an effect on how violent segments of the population are going to act.  Regardless of your political agenda, gun laws (either way) don't seem to have an effect.  It's a cultural problem and a mental health problem, and has little to do with whether citizens can lawfully own and carry guns or whether they cannot.

I'd add education and social / financial mobility to your list. Seems like the cat is already out of the bag at this point. Least we could do is give people a way out of the destitude that constricts their potential and devalues their perception of life as a whole.

[Belsnickel]

(09-07-2015, 04:35 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: In comparison, you could look at the city of Milwaukee, who has some of the lightest gun laws in the country. Where you are allowed to carry either open or concealed......where you do not need a permit to purchase, a license to operate, or a registration to own.....where there are no assault weapon or magazine restrictions, and things such as castle doctrine in place. We're talking about a city that ranked 9th in violent crime rate in 2013, then more than doubled the murder rate from last year to this year (YTD), where police chief Edward Flynn has cited the cities' "absurdly weak gun laws" for the rise in homicides.

But light gun laws supposedly stop this violent crime, or so the gun-nut right wing freedom fighters tell us.

OR...we could set bias aside, and look at both of this cities and make the conclusion that neither heavy gun laws nor light gun laws have an effect on how violent segments of the population are going to act. Regardless of your political agenda, gun laws (either way) don't seem to have an effect. It's a cultural problem and a mental health problem, and has little to do with whether citizens can lawfully own and carry guns or whether they cannot.

(09-07-2015, 04:53 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: I'd add education and social / financial mobility to your list. Seems like the cat is already out of the bag at this point. Least we could do is give people a way out of the destitude that constricts their potential and devalues their perception of life as a whole.

Now you two are just trying to look at the causes of the problem and not the superficial topic the politicians want us to focus on. You're not allowed to do that.

[*Nately120*]

Does this mean the homicide rate in Florida is higher than that of Vermont because more people in Vermont have guns? Help Lucie! I don't know how to actually look at statistical evidence like you!!!!

[Vas Deferens]

(09-07-2015, 07:26 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Now you two are just trying to look at the causes of the problem and not the superficial topic the politicians want us to focus on. You're not allowed to do that.

Reagan hated critical thinking. He did a very good job of stunting it and both parties are reaping the rewards. Trickle down dum dumism.

[Benton]

(09-07-2015, 04:35 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote:   It's a cultural problem and a mental health problem, and has little to do with whether or not citizens can lawfully own and carry guns.

That's the biggest part of it. Defunding mental healthcare in the 80s was one of the biggest reasons for our spike in violent crime, followed in the last decade by the economy.

[BmorePat87]

(09-08-2015, 12:45 AM)Benton Wrote: That's the biggest part of it. Defunding mental healthcare in the 80s was one of the biggest reasons for our spike in violent crime, followed in the last decade by the economy.

The community based approached worked in some areas and caused a massive homeless problem in many others. With no way to afford expensive medication, and with the side effects being so awful for those that they can afford, the other result was an increase in drug use as a means to self medicate. 

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(09-08-2015, 12:45 AM)Benton Wrote: That's the biggest part of it. Defunding mental healthcare in the 80s was one of the biggest reasons for our spike in violent crime, followed in the last decade by the economy.

Mental health issues play a big role in a decent sized segment of gun related crime/death.  Suicides, mass shootings, etc.  There is also a really poisoned culture that considers guns to be a status symbol though, and although they may not have any mental issues of note, societal influences can be even worse.  Education on them is extremely lacking as well, as someone else pointed out.

Unfortunately, the root of the problems will continue to be swept under the rug because guns are a hot button political point. 

[jakefromstatefarm]

Criminals Pretty Much Avoid Buying Guns Legally, Says University of Chicago Study

Jazz Shaw at Hot Air posted about this development (that every Second Amendment supporter knows); criminals do not buy their guns legally at gun stores. I mean, it’s mind-blowing ... that gun control supporters continue to fail at grasping this fact (via Chicago Sun-Times):

Chicago criminals are finicky about how they get their guns, according to a new study by the University of Chicago Crime Lab.

In a survey of almost 100 detainees in the Cook County Jail, few said they get firearms at gun shows or through the Internet, said Harold Pollack, co-director of the crime lab. They also said they don’t normally steal guns or buy them at a licensed store.

Pollack, Philip Cook of Duke University and Susan Parker of U. of C. were the authors of the study, which was published online Friday in the Preventative Medicine journal.

About 70 percent said they got their guns from family, fellow gang members or through other social connections. Only two said they bought a gun at a store. It’s unclear how many of those surveyed were felons, but they can’t hold a state firearm owner’s permit — so they can’t legally purchase a weapon at a store.

Some of those surveyed said people with legal permits to own a firearm buy guns for everyone in the neighborhood who wants one. Sometimes, gang leaders pick someone to go out of state to buy guns. Two inmates said corrupt cops take guns and “put them back on the street.”

Alas, straw purchases are again cited as one of the main ways in which criminals obtain firearms. The other source being shady gun dealers with federal firearms licenses. Hence, as Jazz noted, more gun regulations to prevent legal transfers would be a waste of time since criminals don’t stroll into places like Cabela’s and Gander Mountain for their equipment. All gun control would do is keep law-abiding Americans vulnerable, and make it harder for them to defend themselves. After all, what rational person actually thinks that criminals subject themselves to a background checks to obtain firearms?

Some gun control advocates might harp on the fact that those surveyed said they liked high-capacity magazines (30 rounds or more) since they admitted they were bad marksmen. Yet, they also preferred handguns, while very few said they preferred assault rifles. The latter backs up data from the FBI that shows rifles and shotguns are rarely used in homicides. As for handguns, they’re not going to be banned anytime soon. As for high-capacity magazines, in cities, like Washington D.C., Police Chief Cathy Lanier blamed firearms with such magazines as the reason why the homicide rate has spiked in the District. Yet, on police forms relating to evidence at a crime scene, magazine capacity isn’t listed on the form. Thus, there’s no way to track the data, making Lanier’s claims dubious at best. At the same time, the debate about laws banning, or limiting, magazine sizes is frivolous, and–like waiting periods–do little to reduce gun violence.

Shifting towards how many gun are used in homicides annually, the figure is incredibly low, as reported by Brittany Hughes at MRCTV.org:

Amid all the concern over guns, perhaps it's important to understand just how many of these firearms currently sitting in millions of homes throughout America are actually used in homicides.

According to the most recent government data, it’s less than 0.00004 percent.

The most recent estimates for the number of guns in circulation throughout the United States falls somewhere around 310 million by 2009 standards, according to the National Institute of Justice. There are probably even more now that it’s six years later, but we’ll stick with the latest concrete number.

The number of firearm-related homicides in 2013 -- the CDC’s most recent data -- was 11,208 (so about 309,988,792 guns were just milling about that year, not killing anybody).

That means about 0.000036 homicides were committed per gun in the United States in 2013. For those of you who don’t like doing math, that’s less than four homicides per 100,000 guns.

[Rotobeast]

(09-08-2015, 09:02 AM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: There is also a really poisoned culture that considers guns to be a status symbol though, and although they may not have any mental issues of note, societal influences can be even worse. 

Being a "gun guy", I will admit that this is accurate.
Most in this culture get into a pecker-.measuring contest, when discussing their "arsenal".
This is ingrained In young males, generally from the previous 2 generations of males.
However, most that I know will never sell a firearm.
They generally get handed down.
I think one of the other reasons is that they are on par with investing in gold.
The prices rise with inflation and they are actually easier to sell, if you had to.

[Vas Deferens]

(09-08-2015, 09:20 AM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: Criminals Pretty Much Avoid Buying Guns Legally, Says University of Chicago Study

Jazz Shaw at Hot Air posted about this development (that every Second Amendment supporter knows); criminals do not buy their guns legally at gun stores. I mean, it’s mind-blowing ... that gun control supporters continue to fail at grasping this fact (via Chicago Sun-Times):

   Chicago criminals are finicky about how they get their guns, according to a new study by the University of Chicago Crime Lab.

   In a survey of almost 100 detainees in the Cook County Jail, few said they get firearms at gun shows or through the Internet, said Harold Pollack, co-director of the crime lab. They also said they don’t normally steal guns or buy them at a licensed store.

    Pollack, Philip Cook of Duke University and Susan Parker of U. of C. were the authors of the study, which was published online Friday in the Preventative Medicine journal.

   About 70 percent said they got their guns from family, fellow gang members or through other social connections. Only two said they bought a gun at a store. It’s unclear how many of those surveyed were felons, but they can’t hold a state firearm owner’s permit — so they can’t legally purchase a weapon at a store.

     Some of those surveyed said people with legal permits to own a firearm buy guns for everyone in the neighborhood who wants one. Sometimes, gang leaders pick someone to go out of state to buy guns. Two inmates said corrupt cops take guns and “put them back on the street.”

Alas, straw purchases are again cited as one of the main ways in which criminals obtain firearms. The other source being shady gun dealers with federal firearms licenses. Hence, as Jazz noted, more gun regulations to prevent legal transfers would be a waste of time since criminals don’t stroll into places like Cabela’s and Gander Mountain for their equipment. All gun control would do is keep law-abiding Americans vulnerable, and make it harder for them to defend themselves. After all, what rational person actually thinks that criminals subject themselves to a background checks to obtain firearms?

Some gun control advocates might harp on the fact that those surveyed said they liked high-capacity magazines (30 rounds or more) since they admitted they were bad marksmen. Yet, they also preferred handguns, while very few said they preferred assault rifles. The latter backs up data from the FBI that shows rifles and shotguns are rarely used in homicides. As for handguns, they’re not going to be banned anytime soon. As for high-capacity magazines, in cities, like Washington D.C., Police Chief Cathy Lanier blamed firearms with such magazines as the reason why the homicide rate has spiked in the District. Yet, on police forms relating to evidence at a crime scene, magazine capacity isn’t listed on the form. Thus, there’s no way to track the data, making Lanier’s claims dubious at best. At the same time, the debate about laws banning, or limiting, magazine sizes is frivolous, and–like waiting periods–do little to reduce gun violence.

Shifting towards how many gun are used in homicides annually, the figure is incredibly low, as reported by Brittany Hughes at MRCTV.org:

   Amid all the concern over guns, perhaps it's important to understand just how many of these firearms currently sitting in millions of homes throughout America are actually used in homicides.

   According to the most recent government data, it’s less than 0.00004 percent.

   The most recent estimates for the number of guns in circulation throughout the United States falls somewhere around 310 million by 2009 standards, according to the National Institute of Justice. There are probably even more now that it’s six years later, but we’ll stick with the latest concrete number.

   The number of firearm-related homicides in 2013 -- the CDC’s most recent data -- was 11,208 (so about 309,988,792 guns were just milling about that year, not killing anybody).

   That means about 0.000036 homicides were committed per gun in the United States in 2013. For those of you who don’t like doing math, that’s less than four homicides per 100,000 guns.

Interesting, but a link or placing the copied txt in a quote would be nice rather than simply c/p.  Hard to delineate between you and whoever wrote this.   

[jakefromstatefarm]

(09-08-2015, 01:14 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Interesting, but a link or placing the copied txt in a quote would be nice rather than simply c/p.  Hard to delineate between you and whoever wrote this.   

Sorry, I was on my tablet. 

I'll edit with a link if I can find it. 

None of it was mine, fwiw.

[fredtoast]

Numbers regarding guns and crime are all over the place.

First of all it is important to look at exactly what numbers are being posted. For example, the term "gun deaths" includes suicides and accidents. That greatly inflates the numbers. There is some research that shows that suicide rates may actually drop with fewer guns available, but even if you discount that the number of accidental deaths has to be a cocern.

A large portion of gun violence is between criminals. Many times both are armed. The violent crime rates back in the 90's was inflated mainly by gang activity. Most of the victims were armed gang members. Violence was up in all parts of the country, but the gang activity in large cities was over the top.

The next largest component of gun violence is between people who know each other. If there is a gun in a household it is more likely to be used against someone who lives in that house that a stranger trying to break in. And shootings that don't happen in the house are likely to involve people who know each other in disputes regarding jealousy, bad debts, or any other random things that people fight over. especially when they are high or drunk.

The percentage of gun violence involving self defense is pretty small.

All that being said, I agree that it is impossible to just outlaw guns. But we have to have some sort of gun registration laws to help get the "hot" guns off the streets while allowing law abiding citizens to own weapons. It would not completely eliminate criminals from owning unlicensed weapons, but it would make it much easier for police to sweep these guns up in all sorts of routine arrests where a person or his vehicle is subject to search. I think people will take much more care to secure their weapons if they know that they can be held responsible for what happens with them.

Gun owners also have to be licensed.

We also need some sort of private government data base for records of any person who should be subject to review before being licensed to own a weapon. The law would have to be flexible enough so that any little negative comment from any psychological evaluation would prevent ownership, but there should be a way to screen more strongly for possible mental health issues.

I don't know why responsible gun owners would oppose these laws in the name of public safety.

[jakefromstatefarm]

I don't think that there's any gun law legislation that could be put into place that will stop a crazy person from doing crazy stuff.

I would suggest that making it harder to legally obtain a gun will make more people illegally obtain a gun.

Doing something just for the sake of doing something doesn't make sense to this guy.

[Rotobeast]

(09-08-2015, 04:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Numbers regarding guns and crime are all over the place.

First of all it is important to look at exactly what numbers are being posted.  For example, the term "gun deaths" includes suicides and accidents.  That greatly inflates the numbers.  There is some research that shows that suicide rates may actually drop with fewer guns available, but even if you discount that the number of accidental deaths has to be a cocern.

A large portion of gun violence is between criminals.  Many times both are armed.  The violent crime rates back in the 90's was inflated mainly by gang activity.  Most of the victims were armed gang members.  Violence was up in all parts of the country, but the gang activity in large cities was over the top.

The next largest component of gun violence is between people who know each other.  If there is a gun in a household it is more likely to be used against someone who lives in that house that a stranger trying to break in.  And shootings that don't happen in the house are likely to involve people who know each other in disputes regarding jealousy, bad debts, or any other random things that people fight over.  especially when they are high or drunk.

The percentage of gun violence involving self defense is pretty small.

All that being said, I agree that it is impossible to just outlaw guns.  But we have to have some sort of gun registration laws to help get the "hot" guns off the streets while allowing law abiding citizens to own weapons.  It would not completely eliminate criminals from owning unlicensed weapons, but it would make it much easier for police to sweep these guns up in all sorts of routine arrests where a person or his vehicle is subject to search.  I think people will take much more care to secure their weapons if they know that they can be held responsible for what happens with them.  

Gun owners also have to be licensed.

We also need some sort of private government data base for records of any person who should be subject to review before being licensed to own a weapon.  The law would have to be flexible enough so that any little negative comment from any psychological evaluation would prevent ownership, but there should be a way to screen more strongly for possible mental health issues.  

I don't know why responsible gun owners would oppose these laws in the name of public safety.

Here's a stolen database.
http://www.hotgunz.com/
It is a tool that many enthusiasts use.
Did you already know about it and that is why you used the term ?
Just curious.

[Rotobeast]

(09-08-2015, 05:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  I was saying that there would be a lot more guns listed as stolen if the owner felt he would be held responsible.

Odd.... I cannot fathom someone not reporting a stolen firearm.
Do you know of a situation where someone would not want to ?
How would a person have anything to gain ?
The only possible scenario I can imagine is if it is stolen by a family member and they do not want to bring charges against them.

[fredtoast]

(09-08-2015, 04:51 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Here's a stolen database.
http://www.hotgunz.com/
It is a tool that many enthusiasts use.
Did you already know about it and that is why you used the term ?
Just curious.

Lots of guns possessed by criminals and/or used in crimes are never reported stolen.  That is what I said we need registration laws.  That way we more guns off the streets.  We still get all guns reported stolen, but we also get any guns that are just not registered.

[fredtoast]

(09-08-2015, 05:18 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Odd.... I cannot fathom someone not reporting a stolen firearm.
Do you know of a situation where someone would not want to ?
How would a person have anything to gain ?
The only possible scenario I can imagine is if it is stolen by a family member and they do not want to bring charges against them.

Roto is right.  I was not thinking that through at all.