A Plea to All Christians

[fredtoast]

(06-30-2015, 06:55 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: I understand they have different beliefs. I was just wanting clarification on whether or not those beliefs included slavery, misogyny, and racism that was prevalent until about the middle 20th century in the US.   

It doesn't matter as long as they are not trying to influence how you live your life.

If you are going to pick fights with everyone who does not agree with your beliefs you are going to waste a lot of your life fighting for no reason.

I agree that racism and misogyny are bad things, but as long as they keep it to themselves they can do whatever they want.  As long as it does not effect me or the rest of society I really have no grounds to complain about what they believe.

[fredtoast]

A lot of you know how vicious I can be when arguing with religious people here. But at the same time I have two wonderful Christian parents. I have no problem with them because they are not judgmental hypocrites. they are wonderful giving people who do lots of great things for all sorts of people in need. They don't agree with abortion, living together out of wedlock, or gay marriage, but they don't shun or discriminate against people who do those things.

And I think there are more people out there that are like that than many of us realize. the thing is that since these people are not publicly fighting this type of stuff you rarely see then on TV or on message boards. Unfortunately the judgmental hypocrites are the most vocal and visible.

My parents know that I drink. They don't approve, but they don't shun me over it. But at the same time I respect their beliefs and don't drink when I am at there home. I lived with my wife a while before we got married. Again my parents disapproved but they didn't shun me, but when Rachel and I stayed at their house we did not sleep in the same bed.

[*jason*]

(06-30-2015, 05:46 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Do I need Jesus if I'm a Taoist?

In the worst way.

[Bengalzona]

religion = moral code or set of rules for an individual to willingly choose to follow, not a moral code or set of rules to be imposed upon others

It is that simple. Violate that, and you violate whatever belief you have.

[Harmening]

(06-30-2015, 09:50 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: religion = moral code or set of rules for an individual to willingly choose to follow, not a moral code or set of rules to be imposed upon others

It is that simple. Violate that, and you violate whatever belief you have.

I may have repped you twice...

[xxlt]

(06-30-2015, 04:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think you missed the part where Philhos pointed out that there was no logical reason to oppose gay marriage

and then said there were just religious reasons. What this said to me was religion is illogical. I think philhos may have used the word "rational" and not "logical," so we could then conclude religion is "irrational." Six of one, half dozen of the other. In either case, it was an impressive if accidental observation coming from one trying to defend and exhort his fellow believers.

[xxlt]

(06-30-2015, 01:09 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I get it, this used to be a Christian nation (whether atheists and others want to admit it or not)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

[xxlt]

(06-30-2015, 06:31 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: It insinuates that there was once a time in our country's history where we were somehow more moral.  As a black man, I have no desire to ever go back to those times.  

As a white man I agree. Hell, as a Martian I would agree. But, shameful as those times were they weren't shameful because "we were a Christian nation." America has always had freedom of religion and freedom from religion. Many Christian people, in their infinite irrationality, simply refuse to accept this. But over the years they have refused to accept many facts. The earth is not flat, but Christians denied this. The earth revolves around the sun, but Christians denied this. The US was not chartered as a Christian nation, but that is denied as well. Denying facts: a Christian tradition like no other.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-30-2015, 04:56 PM)tigerseye Wrote: Accepting that people are lost to their sin and not doing anything about it ,isn't that what hate really is. 

No, that's not what hate really is, but it is wrong to not try to do something to get people saved from sin. With that said, putting a ban on gay marriage or fighting to keep a ban on gay marriage is not going to save people from sin, either.

The government can not save people from their sins. 


As Christians we should be focusing our efforts on making sure that WE, not the government, are doing our part to help people receive salvation.

[*PhilHos*]

(06-30-2015, 06:09 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Was it a "Christian Nation" when blacks were slaves?  When blacks and whites couldn't marry?  What about when women and blacks couldn't vote?

Yes.

Don't confuse "Christian" Nation with "Perfect" Nation. We were more of a Christian nation in the past, but that doesn't mean there weren't faults or issues that needed rectifying.

By Christian nation, I mean that the vast majority of citizens were Christian and lived Christian lives.

[*PhilHos*]

(07-01-2015, 11:12 AM)xxlt Wrote: and then said there were just religious reasons. What this said to me was religion is illogical. I think philhos may have used the word "rational" and not "logical," so we could then conclude religion is "irrational." Six of one, half dozen of the other. In either case, it was an impressive if accidental observation coming from one trying to defend and exhort his fellow believers.

If that's what you read, you need to bone up on your reading comprehension skills.

What I said was there was no rational reason if you "take away the religion." To conclude that this means religion is irrational is disingenuous at best and complete idiocy at worst.

[*PhilHos*]

(07-01-2015, 11:25 AM)xxlt Wrote: As a white man I agree. Hell, as a Martian I would agree. But, shameful as those times were they weren't shameful because "we were a Christian nation." America has always had freedom of religion and freedom from religion. Many Christian people, in their infinite irrationality, simply refuse to accept this. But over the years they have refused to accept many facts. The earth is not flat, but Christians denied this. The earth revolves around the sun, but Christians denied this. The US was not chartered as a Christian nation, but that is denied as well. Denying facts: a Christian tradition like no other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrjwaqZfjIY

[Benton]

(07-01-2015, 11:25 AM)xxlt Wrote: As a white man I agree. Hell, as a Martian I would agree. But, shameful as those times were they weren't shameful because "we were a Christian nation." America has always had freedom of religion and freedom from religion. Many Christian people, in their infinite irrationality, simply refuse to accept this. But over the years they have refused to accept many facts. The earth is not flat, but Christians denied this. The earth revolves around the sun, but Christians denied this. The US was not chartered as a Christian nation, but that is denied as well. Denying facts: a Christian tradition like no other.

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or just grossly incorrect.

[fredtoast]

(07-01-2015, 11:41 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes.

Don't confuse "Christian" Nation with "Perfect" Nation. We were more of a Christian nation in the past, but that doesn't mean there weren't faults or issues that needed rectifying.

By Christian nation, I mean that the vast majority of citizens were Christian and lived Christian lives.

But you kind of lose credibility when you claim "Christian country with slaves" is so much better than "non-Christian country with pre-marital sex and cursing".

I agree with the point you are trying to make in this thread, but not the judgment you displayed with some of your comments.

[*wildcats forever*]

(07-01-2015, 11:25 AM)xxlt Wrote: As a white man I agree. Hell, as a Martian I would agree. But, shameful as those times were they weren't shameful because "we were a Christian nation." America has always had freedom of religion and freedom from religion. Many Christian people, in their infinite irrationality, simply refuse to accept this. But over the years they have refused to accept many facts. The earth is not flat, but Christians denied this. The earth revolves around the sun, but Christians denied this. The US was not chartered as a Christian nation, but that is denied as well. Denying facts: a Christian tradition like no other.

Well said. It has always seemed to me that the Christian Nation has had problems with the separation of church and state. Further, my experience with members of the Christian Nation has been more of a 'do as I say, not as I do'. I will only consider following those who lead by example.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-30-2015, 04:56 PM)tigerseye Wrote: We are all sinners . . . If you go along with sin just to look kinder and gentiler and not approaching it as a serious subject your not being loving to those individuals your doing the opposite.
. . . Accepting that people are lost to their sin and not doing anything about it ,isn't that what hate really is . . .  we are not supposed to be weak and conform to sin to get along.

This Sunday when you are at church make sure you rebuke your fellow parishioners for their sins and let them know you won't be weak and conform to their sins just to get along because you love them too much not to speak out against their sins.

[*PhilHos*]

(07-01-2015, 12:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But you kind of lose credibility when you claim "Christian country with slaves" is so much better than "non-Christian country with pre-marital sex and cursing".

First off, I'm pretty sure I said more than "pre-marital sex and cursing" so thanks for "accurately" representing my viewpoint. 

Secondly, I never claimed America was better in the past or not. I simply agreed with the viewpoint that many Christians espouse that America used to be a Christian nation.

Thirdly, whether it was a Christian nation or not, it is not one today. 

Lastly, I never called for a return to a Christian nation (and even if I did, I certainly wouldn't call for a return of slavery, women's suffrage, etc. as well). I called for a return to Christian roots. Back to the teachings of Jesus where we are to LOVE our enemies, to turn the other cheek, etc. 

[*PhilHos*]

(07-01-2015, 12:08 PM)wildcats forever Wrote: Well said. It has always seemed to me that the Christian Nation has had problems with the separation of church and state. Further, my experience with members of the Christian Nation has been more of a 'do as I say, not as I do'. I will only consider following those who lead by example.

Regardless of if it's the "Christian Nation" or not, I hate anyone that leads by the adage of "do as I say, not as I do."

[*Nately120*]

(07-01-2015, 12:21 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Thirdly, whether it was a Christian nation or not, it is not one today. 

I suppose this would require an operational definition of what constitutes a "Christian Nation."

[*PhilHos*]

(07-01-2015, 12:31 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I suppose this would require an operational definition of what constitutes a "Christian Nation."

I said it earlier, but I defined a Christian nation as a nation whose vast majority of citizens were Christians and lived Christian lives.