A year late-Andy Dalton is a Chicago Bear

[Shake n Blake]

(04-08-2021, 12:39 AM)BobJohnson55 Wrote: Let's compare rookie seasons of burrow and Andy. Burrow looked way better. Dalton is a good guy but watching him got old fast. And his fans wanted to treat him like he can be the next trent dilfer but in the same breath say he's up there with manning and Brady.

I literally never once saw anyone say Dalton was top 10, let alone as good as those two. The best people would say is somewhere "close" to top 10...and that was around his peak years. Say after 2013 and 2015. I personally didnt get bored with Andy until we started losing.

[BobJohnson55]

(04-08-2021, 01:47 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I literally never once saw anyone say Dalton was top 10, let alone as good as those two. The best people would say is somewhere "close" to top 10...and that was around his peak years. Say after 2013 and 2015. I personally didnt get bored with Andy until we started losing.

I have tons of times,especially the first 5 years they used to have a picture circulating of stats comparing him to manning. Have heard the Brady comparisons too especially with the fast release. 

[Brownshoe]

(04-08-2021, 01:52 AM)BobJohnson55 Wrote: I have tons of times, especially the first 5 years they used to have a picture circulating of stats comparing him to manning. Have heard the Brady comparisons too especially with the fast release. 

I would say that I'm one of the bigger Dalton homers around here, and even I never said that he was as good as Manning or Brady lol

[Shake n Blake]

(04-08-2021, 01:52 AM)BobJohnson55 Wrote: I have tons of times,especially the first 5 years they used to have a picture circulating of stats comparing him to manning. Have heard the Brady comparisons too especially with the fast release. 

I think you're confusing comparing some stats or aspects of Dalton's game with ACTUAL comparisons. I'm familiar with the "comparisons" you mention, and anyone with common sense knew those guys weren't saying Dalton = Brady or Peyton.

They were just saying Dalton's quick release was an asset, and that Dalton posted some good numbers early in his career. Fwiw, I always thought the Peyton thing was dumb, because passing numbers always go up. Dalton played well in his first few years, but throwing for 3000+ yards as a rookie wasn't a huge deal in 2011. Not like it was in 1998.

Either way...again...that wasn't saying Dalton was = to Peyton. They were just trying to shine a positive light on Dalton's performance up to that point.

[fredtoast]

(04-08-2021, 01:47 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I literally never once saw anyone say Dalton was top 10,

Here is the way I used to rate him before the last couple of year when he dropped significantly.  I felt there were only maybe 6 or 7 QBs who were clearly on an "elite" level.  I forget exactly how I rated them back then.  But then I had Dalton in the second tier of 7 or 8.  Again I forget exactly who was in each tier back then.  So technically I was saying that Dalton was in the same tier of some QBs in the top ten.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-09-2021, 09:00 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is the way I used to rate him before the last couple of year when he dropped significantly.  I felt there were only maybe 6 or 7 QBs who were clearly on an "elite" level.  I forget exactly how I rated them back then.  But then I had Dalton in the second tier of 7 or 8.  Again I forget exactly who was in each tier back then.  So technically I was saying that Dalton was in the same tier of some QBs in the top ten.

Yeah I always thought ranking via tiers was more fair. You usually had 3-4 guys at the top who were heads and shoulders better than everyone else, some "near-elite" guys like Russell Wilson and Ben, then a glut of guys in the 10-20 range who were often interchangeable.

For a year or three (2012, 2013 and 2015), Dalton was ahead of guys like Eli Manning, Matthew Stafford, Cam Newton, Carson Palmer, Andrew Luck, etc in many passing categories. In the span of 2 years ('12 and '13), he accounted for 66 TD's, and ranked 13th and 15th in passer rating. Then obviously he had his career year in 2015. Dalton was at his best from 2012 to 2016.

Then in some years like 2014 and 2017, Dalton was behind those guys. That's why I say they were interchangeable in rankings during those years.

Obviously Dalton tailed off hard from 2017 on, but during the peak of his run, I felt like he was in the mid-tier (10th thru 16th range) with the names I mentioned.

[AQIndianHill]

He's finished in the bottom half of QBR and Passer Rating amongst fellow Starters in 70% of his seasons.

Lol

Hes been below average 70% of this seasons. But yeah hes good.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-09-2021, 07:14 PM)AQIndianHill Wrote: He's finished in the bottom half of QBR and Passer Rating amongst fellow Starters in 70% of his seasons.

Lol

Hes been below average 70% of this seasons.  But yeah hes good.

He was 15th or better (which is well above average) in passer rating in 4 of his 8 seasons as a Bengal...and 4 of 5 seasons from 2012 to 2016.

One of those seasons he was below 15th was his rookie season...and - like I said - he tailed off hard from 2017 on.

Nothing I said was incorrect. The peak of his career was 2012 to 2016, and he was a good QB during that time frame.

[AQIndianHill]

(04-09-2021, 07:27 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: He was 15th or better (which is well above average) in passer rating in 4 of his 8 seasons as a Bengal...and 4 of 5 seasons from 2012 to 2016.

One of those seasons he was below 15th was his rookie season...and - like I said - he tailed off hard from 2017 on.

Nothing I said was incorrect. The peak of his career was 2012 to 2016, and he was a good QB during that time frame.

Among fellow qualified starting QBs, he was above average in Passer Rating and QBR 2 times in 10 years

Why do you think the bears superbowl odds when from 40:1 before Dalton, to 50:1 with him??

[bengalfreak]

(04-05-2021, 12:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But you also can't point to a single game that the Bengals lost due to poor clock management or pretty much any other game day decision.

Marvin Lewis was not only in the top half of the league in winning percentage over his 16 year tenure, he was also in the top half of the league in "come-from-behind" winning percentage.  So he obviously was not that bad at in-game adjustments if he was able to come from behind to win so many games.

How do you calculate come from behind winning percentage? Any time you are behind in the game and retake the lead, then you start wins and losses from that point? If that's the case, I don't really see a value in that stat. 

I would say net points scored in the second half is much more indicative of being capable of half time adjustments. And the Bengals were outscored in the second half a lot under ML. Maybe its perception, because I don't have any stats to back it up, but when I watched the games it seemed like ML's biggest shortcomings were giving up TD's on the last drive before half time and the first drive after the half. It just happened over and over and over. 

[bengalfreak]

(04-05-2021, 01:09 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: There's lots of contradictions with people who bashed Dalton. For example, Dalton's ranking in QB rating was brought up almost every year to bash him.

Burrow ranks 24th and I haven't heard a peep about it.

People bashed Dalton for needing to be "surrounded by weapons" yet some of the same people want Burrow to have Chase to go with Higgins, Boyd and Mixon.

No, I'm not saying we should panic about Burrow, or that Burrow = Dalton. Just pointing out hypocrisy.

Dalton's QB rating was 20th in his rookie year and he played on a much better team with a much better running game. That's not really hypocrisy. 

[AQIndianHill]

(04-10-2021, 06:40 AM)bengalfreak Wrote: Dalton's QB rating was 20th in his rookie year and he played on a much better team with a much better running game. That's not really hypocrisy. 

Dalton Total QBR rank vs other qualified Starters. 

2011:  20/32
2012: 21/32
2013: 17/31
2014: 22/30
2015: 3/33
2016: 20/30
2017: 25/30
2018: 15/33
2019:  27/30
2020: 25/33

He has been in the top 50% of the league TWO TIMES in 10 years.  HAHAHAHAHHHAHA

[fredtoast]

(04-10-2021, 10:43 AM)AQIndianHill Wrote: Dalton Total QBR rank vs other qualified Starters. 

2011:  20/32
2012: 21/32
2013: 17/31
2014: 22/30
2015: 3/33
2016: 20/30
2017: 25/30
2018: 15/33
2019:  27/30
2020: 25/33

He has been in the top 50% of the league TWO TIMES in 10 years.  HAHAHAHAHHHAHA

These numbers are not correct at all.  Where did you get them?

[AQIndianHill]

(04-10-2021, 11:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: These numbers are not correct at all.  Where did you get them?

They are 100% correct

Check the total qbr year over year. Stop saying it’s wrong; it’s all correct

[AQIndianHill]

(04-10-2021, 11:35 AM)fredtoast Wrote: These numbers are not correct at all.  Where did you get them?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr

Do your own work. It’s all right

Dalton blows

[fredtoast]

(04-10-2021, 12:10 PM)AQIndianHill Wrote: https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr

Do your own work.  It’s all right

Dalton blows

My mistake.

I thought you were using passer rating instead of the silly QBR.

Not surprised you believe that Dalton was a bad QB if you really believe that Ryan Fitzpatrick was the 5th best QB in the league last year,

[AQIndianHill]

(04-10-2021, 12:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My mistake.

I thought you were using passer rating instead of the silly QBR.

Not surprised you believe that Dalton was a bad QB if you really believe that Ryan Fitzpatrick was the 5th best QB in the league last year,

Yeah the entire statistical metric is rigged to make Andy dalton appear below average.

Lol

[fredtoast]

(04-10-2021, 03:25 PM)AQIndianHill Wrote: Yeah the entire statistical metric is rigged to make Andy dalton appear below average.  

Lol

No.

Just pointing out how it lacks credibility when it claims Fitzpatrick was the 5th best QB in the league last year.

No one really knows what QBR measures.  It was created by ESPN and I don't really hear anyone talk about it much except on ESPN.  .  .  and among Dalton haters who are desperate.

[AQIndianHill]

(04-10-2021, 03:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.

Just pointing out how it lacks credibility when it claims Fitzpatrick was the 5th best QB in the league last year.

No one really knows what QBR measures.  It was created by ESPN and I don't really hear anyone talk about it much except on ESPN.  .  .  and among Dalton haters who are desperate.

The NFL MVP has finished

1st in QBR in 2020
1st in QBR in 2019
1st in QBR in 2018
3rd in QBR in 2017
1st in QBR in 2016

Lol! Must be a conspiracy vs poor andy.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-09-2021, 07:34 PM)AQIndianHill Wrote: Among fellow qualified starting QBs, he was above average in Passer Rating and QBR 2 times in 10 years

Why do you think the bears superbowl odds when from 40:1 before Dalton, to 50:1 with him??

Imagine using ESPN's QBR in 2021.   

FYI, people stopped taking that stat seriously YEARS ago on here.

Dalton was (well) above average in 4 of his 8 seasons as a Bengal...in the stat that people actually take seriously.

As far as the SB odds, they factor in a lot of things...including the possibility of the Bears trading for Russell Wilson, which went down the tubes when Chicago signed Dalton. They also factor in what the public thinks, as the Bears took a lot of heat for signing Dalton instead of making a big trade. Which I'm sure had an impact on betting. This is why smart people don't look at "Vegas Odds" as a way to formulate an opinion.

(04-10-2021, 06:40 AM)bengalfreak Wrote: Dalton's QB rating was 20th in his rookie year and he played on a much better team with a much better running game. That's not really hypocrisy. 

The team wasn't THAT much better dude. Our WR2 was Jerome Simpson. Our run game ranked 27th in YPC. We had no off-season.

Dalton didn't even get a playbook until the preseason started, due to the lockout.