I had a friend who's first response to this was: "Two trillion dollars well spent."
I'm sorry, but it was well spent to protect innocent woman and children from these bastards. Seeing stories about how these children are being taken from their homes as sex trophies or sex slaves is heart breaking. If that costs me an extra 2$ a month on my tax bill then damnit so be it.
"We aren't world police." Really? We all live in the same damn world. Just because we are divided by the an abstract line in the sand that someone decided to call a "country" doesn't matter to me. We are all people who don't deserve to be hurt by evil assholes. Did we sit on the sidelines while the Nazis took over? Well, we tried too...but how would the world look if we never got in the fight? Same situation here. I stand AGAINST genocide whether its in my country or not.
I read somewhere that there hasn't been a US related death in Afghanistan since 2020. The reason to get out is PURELY financial. I'm independent when it comes to politics (lean slightly right) and I voted for Biden, but man...what are you doing?
(08-16-2021, 04:50 PM)Nately120 Wrote: How does this make biden senile? We've been promised a left wing surrender and cut and run since 2004.
I think the video of him missing the doorway and wandering around the bushes is what's really kicked if off recently.
(08-16-2021, 05:10 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Because there are people who don’t support him and will use anything they can to try to prove why he’s bad.
Which, of course, can be said regardless of which party is in power.
(08-16-2021, 05:15 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: He actually didn't look senile during his press conference.
I've seen worse ones.
Indeed. But some of those "worse ones" are Biden. I definitely had concerns about his mental capacity in the past, but I think the longer he's in office the more evidence is accrued that he is not all there and he's likely being protected/hidden. I don't obviously know for certain either way, not many people are in a position to do so. But I can understand why people would have that concern.
EDIT:
For those not aware, this is the video in question.
(08-16-2021, 05:40 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I'm independent when it comes to politics (lean slightly right) and I voted for Biden, but man...what are you doing?
The agreement to withdraw all US troops was done by Trump last year. They were supposed to be out by May 1, but Biden left them there longer.
Th United Sates will go broke if we have to be the world's police force by ourselves. If things are so bad that outsiders have to step in then we have to do it as part of a group like the UN or some other coalition. We just can't afford to do it by ourselves. And there are many other countries across the world that have human rights violations as bad and even worse than in Afghanistan.
(08-16-2021, 05:40 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I had a friend who's first response to this was: "Two trillion dollars well spent."
I'm sorry, but it was well spent to protect innocent woman and children from these bastards. Seeing stories about how these children are being taken from their homes as sex trophies or sex slaves is heart breaking. If that costs me an extra 2$ a month on my tax bill then damnit so be it.
"We aren't world police." Really? We all live in the same damn world. Just because we are divided by the an abstract line in the sand that someone decided to call a "country" doesn't matter to me. We are all people who don't deserve to be hurt by evil assholes. Did we sit on the sidelines while the Nazis took over? Well, we tried too...but how would the world look if we never got in the fight? Same situation here. I stand AGAINST genocide whether its in my country or not.
I read somewhere that there hasn't been a US related death in Afghanistan since 2020. The reason to get out is PURELY financial. I'm independent when it comes to politics (lean slightly right) and I voted for Biden, but man...what are you doing?
Biden is consistent. Wrong on every foreign policy decision for the last 45 years. A buddy of mine said, "well we can always go back"... no, we can't. We'd never have any support at all from anyone in that country after we are abandoning them to beheadings, sex slavery, etc.
(08-16-2021, 05:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The agreement to withdraw all US troops was done by Trump last year. They were supposed to be out by May 1, but Biden left them there longer.
Th United Sates will go broke if we have to be the world's police force by ourselves. If things are so bad that outsiders have to step in then we have to do it as part of a group like the UN or some other coalition. We just can't afford to do it by ourselves. And there are many other countries across the world that have human rights violations as bad and even worse than in Afghanistan.
And he still eventually withdrew them. Biden is at fault as much as Trump.
(08-16-2021, 05:55 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: And he still eventually withdrew them. Biden is at fault as much as Trump.
In the interest of keeping it as apolitical as possible, I'll just say that this fiasco is a total 20+ year failure by the American government. You'll have people pointing the finger left, you'll have people pointing the finger right, but our government as a whole should be pointing the finger in the mirror. There were two options: Perpetual occupation of Afghanistan, or withdraw and hand the country back to the Taliban. This would have been the result whether the schmoe in the White House had a (D) or an ® or an (I) next to his or her name.
And it sucks. There's no bones about it. The withdrawal, no matter who ordered it and no matter who executed it, was a tacit admission that the past 20+ years have largely been a waste of time, money and life.
(08-16-2021, 05:55 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: And he still eventually withdrew them. Biden is at fault as much as Trump.
Trump said he was going to withdraw them, but put the stipulation on it that the Taliban must not take over the country again. One thing about Trump, he wasn't afraid to change his mind on something according to new developments as they came along. I don't really blast the withdraw as much as the manner. First, Biden we should not have taken air support away from the Afghan National Army. Secondly, we should have left in a couple of months, when winter hits, instead of right in the middle of their fighting season. That would have at least given the national forces a chance.
(08-16-2021, 05:43 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think the video of him missing the doorway and wandering around the bushes is what's really kicked if off recently.
It wouldn't surprise me if he were losing it a bit, but I expected that video to be a bit more amusingly terrible. Biden has a ways to go before he takes the bumbling crown from Gerald Ford or Nancy Reagan, is all I'm saying. As a generic aside, Americans are notoriously disrespectful of the aged BUT if Trump runs in 2024 I'm sure liberals will remind people that a 78 year old man being elected is pure insanity.
(08-16-2021, 06:43 PM)Nately120 Wrote: It wouldn't surprise me if he were losing it a bit, but I expected that video to be a bit more amusingly terrible. Biden has a ways to go before he takes the bumbling crown from Gerald Ford or Nancy Reagan, is all I'm saying. As a generic aside, Americans are notoriously disrespectful of the aged BUT if Trump runs in 2024 I'm sure liberals will remind people that a 78 year old man being elected is pure insanity.
Agreed. I really hope Trump doesn't run in 2024 (and I still think he won't) so we never find out.
(08-16-2021, 07:25 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Bush was doing this on daily basis.
W was just stupid, not potentially senile. They're both indicative of reduced cognition, but one is progressive. Besides if we disqualified the stupid from public office we'd have to run a slew of special elections.
(08-16-2021, 07:37 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Agreed. I really hope Trump doesn't run in 2024 (and I still think he won't) so we never find out.
W was just stupid, not potentially senile. They're both indicative of reduced cognition, but one is progressive. Besides if we disqualified the stupid from public office we'd have to run a slew of special elections.
This and the trump ramp thing and Bush I saying he and Reagan had sex all fall under people looking bad mostly due to 24/7 video coverage.
(08-16-2021, 12:57 PM)Goalpost Wrote: Went from withdraw to evacuate. That's where the issue was. Sloppy. Sounds like the French and Great Britain are doing the same thing. Taliban wants to rename the country. Open up trade with Pakistan? Hints that China could get involved rebuilding infrastructure.
Let the Chinese have their crack at it. They'll eventually learn all of the same things that the US, the Soviets, the British, and everyone else who tried all the way back to Alexander the Great found out: Nothing good comes to anyone that gets involved in that country, no matter how much military might or motivation they may have.
(08-16-2021, 10:24 PM)samhain Wrote: Let the Chinese have their crack at it. They'll eventually learn all of the same things that the US, the Soviets, the British, and everyone else who tried all the way back to Alexander the Great found out: Nothing good comes to anyone that gets involved in that country, no matter how much military might or motivation they may have.
Except the raw mineral deposits in the region are worth more to China now than ever before. Too bad we blew our world domination load early on an oil marketing plan that couldn’t be solidified.
It’s always been about the mining rights. Don’t forget it.
(08-16-2021, 06:40 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Trump said he was going to withdraw them, but put the stipulation on it that the Taliban must not take over the country again. One thing about Trump, he wasn't afraid to change his mind on something according to new developments as they came along. I don't really blast the withdraw as much as the manner. First, Biden we should not have taken air support away from the Afghan National Army. Secondly, we should have left in a couple of months, when winter hits, instead of right in the middle of their fighting season. That would have at least given the national forces a chance.
The last bolded kind of makes sense. The Taliban would have taken over in spring, but the world would have been spared some bad
airport scenes.
Any "stipulation" that the Taliban not take over would be unenforceable. That was to make concessions sound like negotiations.
Looks like Trump's time line is what triggered the Morale collapse in the ANDSF.
For people who wanted the US to leave, the only problem I see is the unexpected ANDSF collapse/surrender, which accelerated the withdrawal time table and the loss of perimeter control at the airport. The US will certainly be out of the country, as Trump and Biden and most on "both sides" wanted.
Now it will be difficult to rescue the 20,000 or so target for immigration to the US. But probably they will restore order by tomorrow and get many or even most of them out.
(08-16-2021, 05:55 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: And he still eventually withdrew them. Biden is at fault as much as Trump.
There were only 2,500 troops left when Biden took office. Trump reduce the presence from 13,000 to 2,500 between March 2020 and January 2021. What exactly was Biden's play when he entered office after a nearly year long withdrawal of 80% of our troops in Afghanistan?
(08-16-2021, 10:24 PM)samhain Wrote: Let the Chinese have their crack at it. They'll eventually learn all of the same things that the US, the Soviets, the British, and everyone else who tried all the way back to Alexander the Great found out: Nothing good comes to anyone that gets involved in that country, no matter how much military might or motivation they may have.
A question I have is--are today's Taliban really the same as yesterday's?
The old Taliban cared not a fig for intercourse with the outside world, nor what the world thought of them.
So I'm wondering how much defeat, exile, and new leadership may change and shape their policy goals. Now they are traveling around the world negotiating and receiving envoys from other countries. Will they really, as feared, provide havens for ISIS an Al Qaeda--or quash them to prevent a return US invasion?
I don't think China wants to occupy A-stan, though they would like concessions for mineral extraction. And the old Taliban would never cut a deal with the "atheists," tolerate their presence and business in the country. So I am curious to see what happens.
Perhaps the Taliban would allow some restricted development of the country, if they believed it would not "pollute" the
society they will now try to create. All this remains to be seen. If they decide they want an air force, they'll need help.
I foresee fractures in the movement if development is allowed to any degree. If some is allowed, then I expect Pakistan will become the primary broker for outside interests. Arms from Russia and China maybe. Chinese aid to Pakistan, with some Chinese conditions.
Also, we hear the "Taliban have the country." I think they'll "have" the same problem with Tajiks and Hazara that they
had in 2001. Taliban "victory" doesn't mean the end of war in A-stan.
(08-16-2021, 06:40 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Trump said he was going to withdraw them, but put the stipulation on it that the Taliban must not take over the country again. One thing about Trump, he wasn't afraid to change his mind on something according to new developments as they came along. I don't really blast the withdraw as much as the manner. First, Biden we should not have taken air support away from the Afghan National Army. Secondly, we should have left in a couple of months, when winter hits, instead of right in the middle of their fighting season. That would have at least given the national forces a chance.
Trump removed 80% of the troops by the time he left office. He bragged in late June about Biden being unable to stop "his" withdrawal. He wanted a complete withdrawal by May. Your hypothetical musings are not supported by his words or actions.
If we have to pull out of Afghanistan maybe the USSR can resume their occupation while we recover. At any rate, as much as Afghanistan and the taliban are pre Trump-era political talking points, the bottom line is we have Biden and Trump both calling to withdraw but Trump assuring everyone that he would have done it better. Business as usual, really. If the GOP is going to get back to focusing on foreign policy and jingoism they're going to have to jettison Trump and his culture war stuff. I think this stuff fizzles itself back into the background by 2024, so it's moot.
And yes, that's a cynical way of looking at it, but Americans don't know foreign policy and they just tend to rally around their party in such matters.
(08-17-2021, 12:31 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Trump removed 85% of the troops by the time he left office. He bragged in late June about Biden being unable to stop "his" withdrawal. He wanted a complete withdrawal by May. Your hypothetical musings are not supported by his words or actions.
Indeed.
Up until a month ago he was taking credit for the withdrawl.
“I started the process, all the troops are coming home, they (Biden) couldn’t stop the process. 21 years is enough. They (Biden) couldn’t stop the process, they (Biden) wanted to but couldn’t stop the process.”
And while most all of us have spread blame over all the previous administrations this is 2020 so there are those want to pretend it never happened and "their side" had nothing to do with it.
BUSTED: RNC Caught Deleting Page Extolling Trump’s Deal With the Taliban — Here’s a Copy of It https://t.co/kMl2jRZ94R
Politics aside I'm long on record as maintaining that we could have been there 1000 years and when we left someone would run out of a cave and say they beat us and everything we did would get reversed.
Shouldn't have been there this long AND should have had an exit strategy when we went in. Lots of blame to go around.
And Biden with the "Buck stops with me" is what we needed. Someone to just take the heat and get it over with. And also a shot at DJT ad his attitude of never taking the blame for anything.
Taking personal responsibility used to be something that was praised.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(08-17-2021, 08:53 AM)GMDino Wrote: Taking personal responsibility used to be something that was praised.
It will just boil down to bi-partisan politics as usual, won't it? As of now Biden and Trump are the face of the parties and you have both of them being for withdrawal with the added caveat that the GOP is at odds with the prior "fight 'em over there" republicans and have preached America-first and the notion that we can't provide too much relief to refugees because even if .001% of them are terrorists we are going to pay the price, and so on.
As impactful as this stuff is to human lives and countries, it is going to be smashed through the usual "democrat vs republican" channels as anything else as far as regular American perception is concerned. Plus, within the next few days we're going to be right back to talking about how masks and vaccines are the most important issues. This country has made such a concerted effort (particular the GOP shift in the Trump era) to be all about itself and culture wars that it is legimately odd to be reminded that other people being murdered by terrorist sects was once a point of discussion.
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