Afghanistan

[Belsnickel]

We're out, and I'm glad we're out. It's a shitshow over there right now and it would have been regardless. Someone else said it, already, but pulling out of Afghanistan was one thing I agreed with Trump on. It frustrates me how political this has become when just a couple months ago something like 70% of the country was on board with pulling out. Now we're below half and it's all because people want to live in a fantasy land where Afghanistan was somehow going to be some beacon of democracy in the region. It was never going to be that way. We should help those that helped us and are now in danger, and wash our hands of the place. It sucks to say and it may seem cruel, but that's my feeling on this.

[Dill]

(08-18-2021, 12:44 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: No, he told them we were going to leave May 2021. You can believe that he scared them, but he was quick to give them a sweetheart deal with nearly no concessions on their part, and his treatment of the Kurds in Syria made it clear that he was willing to exit quickly and abandon allies. 

Yes. It’s the timeline/exit which set the stage for collapse.

Then Trump reduced troop levels faster than the agreement schedule without monitoring the Taliban’s “concessions”.

Watching “the five” right now. If you’d just tuned in from another planet, you’d think a withdrawal from Afghanistan was the last thing anyone in the US wanted—because of the potential for al al Quaeda resurgence. Some guy named Biden wouldn’t listen to the experts though.

If you’d tuned in on Monday you’d have heard it was the experts who had failed us

[*Nately120*]

(08-18-2021, 12:51 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: We're out, and I'm glad we're out. It's a shitshow over there right now and it would have been regardless. Someone else said it, already, but pulling out of Afghanistan was one thing I agreed with Trump on. It frustrates me how political this has become when just a couple months ago something like 70% of the country was on board with pulling out. Now we're below half and it's all because people want to live in a fantasy land where Afghanistan was somehow going to be some beacon of democracy in the region. It was never going to be that way. We should help those that helped us and are now in danger, and wash our hands of the place. It sucks to say and it may seem cruel, but that's my feeling on this.

That's politics for ya...something can have bi-partisan support and be supported by both major candidates, but as soon as one of the parties takes the action it becomes a case of "my side would have done it better" and the 70% approval regresses towards the "approval rating" mean.

My main scoff is the fact that the GOP removed Liz Cheney from power because she doesn't fit with the new goals and ideations of the GOP and then 3 months later republicans want to talk about maintaining a presence in Afghanistan and the taliban and jingoism and all those things the Trump-era republicans stopped caring about because "America first."  It goes back to the old notion that when your party isn't the one in power you can assure everyone that your party would totally be doing everything right IF they were in power right now.

[jj22]

It looks like the takeover was all apart of the withdrawal deal Trump signed.

https://www.rawstory.com/trump-in-2020-praised-the-taliban-as-a-future-counterterrorism-partner-they-will-be-some-very-bad-people/

I personally agree with Trump and Biden as far as the withdrawal. I don't agree with Trump turning Afghan over to the Taliban.

20 years, trillions of dollars and the Afghan army wouldn't even roll their eyes at the oncoming Taliban. Another month or year after 20 years isn't going to change things.

Props to Biden for biting bullet and taking heat (for Trumps deal, and from those who applauded Trump). It's time a POTUS kept their word on leaving Afghanistan.

Those trillions of dollars spent was enough to fix social security, pay for Universal health care, and free college. We've got to put this money back into the country.

[*michaelsean*]

I think the consequences from the withdrawal are shocking some people.

And as mentioned before, it seems they don’t want to fight for their own country. Our soldiers did all that was asked of them in trying to help. Including dying.

I feel really bad for the younger ones who grew up in a much more secular world, and are now going to be stripped of all that. Especially the girls and young women. They will literally kill you for not dressing correctly.

[*Nately120*]

We set out to bring democracy to the middle east. 20 years later the taliban resumes control and we have one of our two major parties running on a platform of our own democracy being a rigged sham. Resounding successes, abound.

[BmorePat87]

(08-18-2021, 02:00 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I think the consequences from the withdrawal are shocking some people.

And as mentioned before, it seems they don’t want to fight for their own country. Our soldiers did all that was asked of them in trying to help. Including dying.

I feel really bad for the younger ones who grew up in a much more secular world, and are now going to be stripped of all that. Especially the girls and young women. They will literally kill you for not dressing correctly.

That's unfair. 73k of the 81k forces killed in Afghanistan and Pakistan were nationals, not US or allied personnel. Tens of thousands died for their country. Tens of thousands of civilians died too. 

This is a good break down of the inevitable collapse:

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/how-afghan-army-collapsed-under-talibans-pressure

tl;dr:

-Doha and the speedy exit demoralized them, leading them to believe the country was being handed to the Taliban
-The lost of contractors meant a lost of logistical support
-Lost of those supports led to failures to properly supply the army, especially in remote locations
-Cultural/language barriers in the US military when training
-US mostly trained in infantry tactics, not local security
-Failure to train the skills needed to run their military
-Poor education in Afghanistan
-Massive corruption in Afghanistan
-Officers inflated the size of their forces for more money/supplied and then underpaid the men serving under them and rerouted supplies for profit.

[*michaelsean*]

What I do take from this is that apparently a bunch of armed civilians can stand up to the might of the US. Maybe we shouldn’t laugh at second amendment supporters who arm themselves against tyranny.

[Dill]

(08-18-2021, 03:49 PM)michaelsean Wrote: What I do take from this is that apparently a bunch of armed civilians can stand up to the might of the US. Maybe we shouldn’t laugh at second amendment supporters who arm themselves against tyranny.

Lol or a super minority deeply invested in fundamentalist religion
Decides to circumvent democracy altogether.

[*Nately120*]

(08-18-2021, 03:49 PM)michaelsean Wrote: What I do take from this is that apparently a bunch of armed civilians can stand up to the might of the US. Maybe we shouldn’t laugh at second amendment supporters who arm themselves against tyranny.

I laugh at their ability to identify and define tyranny more than their ability to fight it.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-18-2021, 04:41 PM)Dill Wrote: Lol or a super minority deeply invested in fundamentalist religion
Decides to circumvent democracy altogether.

Don't try and equate modern Christianity and its adherents to radical Islam.  I get defending Islam is your pet topic, but this type of comparison is silly to the point of absurdity.  You'd be hard pressed to find 100,000 Christians in the US that come anywhere close to the level of the fundamentalist radical Islamists that exist in the multiple millions in Afghanistan alone.  

[BmorePat87]

(08-18-2021, 03:49 PM)michaelsean Wrote: What I do take from this is that apparently a bunch of armed civilians can stand up to the might of the US. Maybe we shouldn’t laugh at second amendment supporters who arm themselves against tyranny.

Absolutely disagree with this take, and I think it's a really bad way to try to make an unrelated partisan point. It's a militia that's tens of thousands strong and supported by outside groups and possibly other nations. On the battlefield, they absolutely could not stand up to the might of the US, but that doesn't mean the US, as a foreign force, can stop them from remaining an entity, especially when they hide in sovereign nations, or prepare another government enough to handle them. 

[BmorePat87]

(08-18-2021, 06:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Don't try and equate modern Christianity and its adherents to radical Islam.  I get defending Islam is your pet topic, but this type of comparison is silly to the point of absurdity.  You'd be hard pressed to find 100,000 Christians in the US that come anywhere close to the level of the fundamentalist radical Islamists that exist in the multiple millions in Afghanistan alone.  

but comparing the Taliban to gun owners fearing tyranny was cool?

[*Nately120*]

(08-18-2021, 06:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Don't try and equate modern Christianity and its adherents to radical Islam.  I get defending Islam is your pet topic, but this type of comparison is silly to the point of absurdity.  You'd be hard pressed to find 100,000 Christians in the US that come anywhere close to the level of the fundamentalist radical Islamists that exist in the multiple millions in Afghanistan alone.  

I honestly assumed he meant the "religion" of Trumpism.  I guess he would have said cult in that case, though.

[jj22]

(08-18-2021, 06:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Don't try and equate modern Christianity and its adherents to radical Islam.  I get defending Islam is your pet topic, but this type of comparison is silly to the point of absurdity.  You'd be hard pressed to find 100,000 Christians in the US that come anywhere close to the level of the fundamentalist radical Islamists that exist in the multiple millions in Afghanistan alone.  

Well to be fair when the Republican highlighted that even the Taliban was against abortion it garnered millions of likes and applause. I think the "religious" right are far more like Islamic law then people want to think. They believe a women's place is in the kitchen (damn those feminist!), with the kids and believe the wife are obedient to the husband. Evangelicals do consider America Babylon as do many Muslim nations. The similarities are far more prevalent then people want to believe. 

The difference is many Christians go by the new testament, where as Islam is more like the old testament. But the old testament and sharia law is fairly similar.

[*Nately120*]

(08-18-2021, 06:26 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well to be fair when the Republican highlighted that even the Taliban was against abortion it garnered millions of likes and applause. I think the "religious" right are far more like Islamic law then people want to think. They believe a women's place is in the kitchen (damn those feminist!), with the kids and believe the wife are obedient to the husband. Evangelicals do consider America Babylon as do many Muslim nations. The similarities are far more prevalent then people want to believe. 

Methinks the fact that we live in a pretty comfortable country keeps people from being too over the top with their religion.  Christians were a lot more hardcore about Christianity when they were stuck in the desert, too.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-18-2021, 06:14 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: but comparing the Taliban to gun owners fearing tyranny was cool?

He wasn't comparing the Taliban to US gun owners as people, he was pointing out that armed insurgents with no airforce, navy or tanks, coupled with minimal support weaponry resisted the US military for twenty years.  This rather puts the lie to the claims of many that US citizens armed only with small arms would stand no chance against a US military that has F-15's and nukes.  So, it's nothing close to the same type of comparison as there is no ideology being compared, just facts about armed resistance to a modern, even the most modern, military.

(08-18-2021, 06:18 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I honestly assumed he meant the "religion" of Trumpism.  I guess he would have said cult in that case, though.

I doubt it.  Regardless "Trumpism" is not a religion.  There's a reason why the de-Nazification went so much smoother than anticipated.  Because the Nazi leaders were only men, claiming no divine guidance.  Discrediting a human being is a far more simple task than discrediting "god", no matter how persuasive that human is/was or how many followers they had at one point.  Or how absurd the "god" in question is, for that matter.

[jj22]

I will give Trump credit for bringing them around some. I remember their reaction (much like the Taliban) and damnation of Michelle Obama showing a little shoulder when wearing a dress. Gasp!

Then Melania came along with girl on girl porn, and nude pics all over the net and they approved.

So steps have been taken in the right direction as far as extremists.

[*Nately120*]

(08-18-2021, 06:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I doubt it.  Regardless "Trumpism" is not a religion.  There's a reason why the de-Nazification went so much smoother than anticipated.  Because the Nazi leaders were only men, claiming no divine guidance.  Discrediting a human being is a far more simple task than discrediting "god", no matter how persuasive that human is/was or how many followers they had at one point.  Or how absurd the "god" in question is, for that matter.

Fair points.  The concept of "Trump" is probably more akin to the concept of "The Confederacy" with a currently living cult-like leader. I'm really just saying that I could picture 100,000 MAGA's grabbing their guns and doing what they think fighting tyranny is more so than people who are simply high on Jesus.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(08-18-2021, 06:26 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well to be fair when the Republican highlighted that even the Taliban was against abortion it garnered millions of likes and applause. I think the "religious" right are far more like Islamic law then people want to think. They believe a women's place is in the kitchen (damn those feminist!), with the kids and believe the wife are obedient to the husband. Evangelicals do consider America Babylon as do many Muslim nations. The similarities are far more prevalent then people want to believe. 

The difference is many Christians go by the new testament, where as Islam is more like the old testament. But the old testament and sharia law is fairly similar.

I think this is a gross oversimplification.  As I already stated, you'd be very hard pressed to find thousands of such Christians in any nation, while you can easily find several million such Islamists in Afghanistan alone.  Even if your claims about evangelicals were 100% true, which I don't believe is the case, the examples you cite absolutely pale in comparison to the atrocities committed on a daily basis by the Taliban, Isis and their ilk.

(08-18-2021, 06:28 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Methinks the fact that we live in a pretty comfortable country keeps people from being too over the top with their religion.  Christians were a lot more hardcore about Christianity when they were stuck in the desert, too.

Eh, if you went back several hundred years I'd have many of the same complaints about Christianity that I do about Islam.  That's just no longer the case.  There are multiple reasons for it, and certainly living in a country with a Constitution such as ours (written by Christians, btw), is one of them.  But it's not close to the only factor.  I think a secular government, one of the cornerstones of our system, is a far bigger factor.