Are Democrats going to push masks and vaccines again?

[Shake n Blake]

(09-06-2023, 10:11 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Just to push further on one particular topic, do you think personal freedom has a limit where you would be ok with a temporary loss of freedom? What if COVID had a 25% mortality rate instead of <1%? If not there, is there any level of mortality where you would be okay to comply with an enforced mandate to lock down/vaccinate/wear PPE etc.? I don't mean this as a "gotcha", just genuine curiosity. 

I do not. To me, the lockdowns are not living. I live in Michigan, which had arguably the worst lockdown. It didn't help the death count. It did cause a lot of suffering.

My family didn't even see a movie for 3 years, partly due to lockdown, partly due to the theaters either shutting down or changing hands and renovating (also due to lockdown).

Our yearly parades and all events were all canceled. We had very little reason to leave our house for almost 2 years. My personal anxiety and depression worsened.

My son was doing better in school than he ever had, then when physical school finally started back up, he just dropped out.

The lockdowns have a profound impact on everything from entertainment to schooling to mental health.

Either way, I feel this is moot because we aren't even close to that point and we already gave our rights away and set a precedent.

I still haven't personally known anyone who said Covid was worse than the flu, let alone anyone who died from it. I've heard second hand about people who died who already had pre-existing conditions or "co-morbitities", which seems to have inflated the numbers, as hospitals were receiving funding for covid, which makes me wonder if there was incentive to inflate those numbers with people who were likely already heading out, anyway.

Anyways, I feel I've strayed a bit here. For me, the answer is no and will always be no. I strongly value personal freedom, and will always raise an eyebrow when anything is used as an excuse to take it away.

Who was it that said "never let a good tragedy go to waste"?

[KillerGoose]

(09-06-2023, 01:58 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I do not. To me, the lockdowns are not living. I live in Michigan, which had arguably the worst lockdown. It didn't help the death count. It did cause a lot of suffering.

My family didn't even see a movie for 3 years, partly due to lockdown, partly due to the theaters either shutting down or changing hands and renovating (also due to lockdown).

Our yearly parades and all events were all canceled. We had very little reason to leave our house for almost 2 years. My personal anxiety and depression worsened.

My son was doing better in school than he ever had, then when physical school finally started back up, he just dropped out.

The lockdowns have a profound impact on everything from entertainment to schooling to mental health.

Either way, I feel this is moot because we aren't even close to that point and we already gave our rights away and set a precedent.

I still haven't personally known anyone who said Covid was worse than the flu, let alone anyone who died from it. I've heard second hand about people who died who already had pre-existing conditions or "co-morbitities", which seems to have inflated the numbers, as hospitals were receiving funding for covid, which makes me wonder if there was incentive to inflate those numbers with people who were likely already heading out, anyway.

Anyways, I feel I've strayed a bit here. For me, the answer is no and will always be no. I strongly value personal freedom, and will always raise an eyebrow when anything is used as an excuse to take it away.

Who was it that said "never let a good tragedy go to waste"?

Thanks for the answer. I agree, we aren't close to anything like that happening. To provide a personal anecdote, I had COVID and I would say it was worse than the flu, or at minimum as bad. It beat me up, I felt like dog shit. I never had any breathing issues, though. However, it cleared up after two or three days. No one I know personally died from it, thankfully, but I did know a few hospital admissions. 

[Shake n Blake]

(09-06-2023, 02:02 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Thanks for the answer. I agree, we aren't close to anything like that happening. To provide a personal anecdote, I had COVID and I would say it was worse than the flu, or at minimum as bad. It beat me up, I felt like dog shit. I never had any breathing issues, though. However, it cleared up after two or three days. No one I know personally died from it, thankfully, but I did know a few hospital admissions. 

I had it as well. I personally feel I've had times with the flu that were both better and worse. So I'd rank it right there with the flu. The first day was a doozy, though. I mostly slept my way through it.

I think there's a way to handle it sensibly, but to say that forced lockdowns and mandatory masks with curfews was a bit extreme would be an extreme understatement.

[hollodero]

(09-06-2023, 01:24 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I have first hand knowledge of how angry people would have been, trust me.    But KG raises an interesting point below, what if the virus had a 20% lethality rate, would the protests have still been allowed?  Once you answer that then revisit the point I made; either the virus wasn't as deadly as they claimed, and they knew it, or they didn't know and let people expose themselves in the thousands.

First off, I used the same example for my purposes as well, to prove that logically at some theoretical point, restrictions of individual freedom have to be justifiable. If Covid met that threshold, that's a different debate for sure. But there's a threshold.

As to your specific example, I think I got the point. It makes sense. What I disagree with is your conclusion. I just find this to be a bit too black and white, no pun intended.
If I were to make the decisions, I would have supported the initial covid measures [not in its entirety, but that leads too far]. Mainly because almost everyone who has expertise tells me I should, my own advisors and others around the globe. But when then facing protests surrounding a highly sensitive topic, I might still have just done the same that was actually done. Leaving the measures in place, but not interfering with the protests. Even knowing that I could not credibly defend myself against accusations of hypocrisy.
For the only alternatives would be to either go full force against the protesters and risk riots, death and hatred for a generation over it, or to lift the measures to possibly devastating effects. Then I'd be less hypocritical, that's a plus, but the outcomes might be even worse. I'm not saying everyone was within this line of thinking, maybe a little, maybe not at all. But your two both nefarious alternatives are too sharp for me (either they knew it was not that deadly and lied or they wanted the protesters and their social circles to perish), sharper as I find reality to be, which mainly consists of foul compromises with ideals. If that's somehow understandable.

(09-06-2023, 01:24 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: That was the stated goal here as well, but it also got mixed in with "two weeks to flatten the curve".  There was little to no transparency and the more information we get the more we realized we were not always being told the truth.  Sometimes out of ignorance, but sometimes deliberately.

I mean, I feel it needs to be said that hardly anyone could make credible predictions or be transparent about the unknown. Not everything that was false was nefarious or deliberate in intent. I'm certainly critical about certain measures too, but I feel it needs to be recognized that most policy makers were in a real tight spot.

(09-06-2023, 01:24 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yeah, I don't think I'll ever not be angry about that, which was only exacerbated when I saw the huge George Floyd funeral.  Apparently that was fine, but not an old man sitting on his wife of 50+ years deathbed.  

Understandably so. I'm most certainly not defending that.

(09-06-2023, 01:24 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: People first went into the whole lockdown willingly, and gave the government a lot of leeway and benefit of the doubt.  Unfortunately, that was abused, such as Newsome's unmasked dinner for donors, and I think a sizeable percentage of our population will not trust the government on this type of issue again.  It would take a bodies stacked in the streets situation for many at this point.

Oh yeah... they caught people everywhere, if that's some consolation. It adds to my very well thought out thesis that most politicians are douchebags.
But to conclude from that that the measures were exaggerated in its entirety would be a leap too far for me. The message does not just hinge on the messenger.

[Eraserhead]

(09-06-2023, 01:58 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I still haven't personally known anyone who said Covid was worse than the flu, let alone anyone who died from it. I've heard second hand about people who died who already had pre-existing conditions or "co-morbitities", which seems to have inflated the numbers, as hospitals were receiving funding for covid, which makes me wonder if there was incentive to inflate those numbers with people who were likely already heading out, anyway.

If you don't personally know someone who died of cancer,, does that mean cancer numbers are inflated or incentivized to be higher? Where's your proof that what you're saying is true other than just your own opinion?

My brother died of COVID at 26 years old. He was a firefighter,, super healthy,, no underlying issues. He suffered for 2 long weeks and then passed away in the middle of the night. So, please don't come on here trying to make it sound like the ONLY people who died from COVID were ones who already had health issues. It's crazy disrespectful to those of us that lost people that didn't have health issues.

[Eraserhead]

(09-06-2023, 01:58 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I strongly value personal freedom, and will always raise an eyebrow when anything is used as an excuse to take it away.

So that would mean you're also pro-choice??

[*Nately120*]

If covid comes back in full force they should just leave the economy open and tell people it's their duty to die for Joe Biden's economy and Bidenomics to succeed or else Trump will win in 2024 for sure. Conservatives will lock themselves down ASAP when they hear that.

[Eraserhead]

(09-06-2023, 05:14 PM)Nately120 Wrote: If covid comes back in full force they should just leave the economy open and tell people it's their duty to die for Joe Biden's economy and Bidenomics to succeed or else Trump will win in 2024 for sure.  Conservatives will lock themselves down ASAP when they hear that.

Ha, if Biden came out as anti-mask tomorrow,, a whole lot of conservatives would probably start wearing them 24/7. 

[Arturo Bandini]

(09-06-2023, 05:08 PM)Eraserhead Wrote: So that would mean you're also pro-choice??

Doesn't really work like that. 

His body, his choice but your body, his choice too. 

[Eraserhead]

(09-06-2023, 05:49 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Doesn't really work like that. 

His body, his choice but your body, his choice too. 

He hasn't answered yet, but I hope that's not the case. If you claim to "value personal freedom" you would have to be pro-choice too or you don't really value personal freedom,, just the freedoms you happen to like at any given time. That would be meaningless.

[Dill]

(09-06-2023, 05:25 PM)Eraserhead Wrote: Ha, if Biden came out as anti-mask tomorrow,, a whole lot of conservatives would probably start wearing them 24/7. 

Might take a little more. Fauci would have to come out of retirement and claim going without masks is
the proper woke thing to do. Money from mask companies goes to Israel or gun manufacturers.

Then a couple people need to appear on Fox with stories of how they were forced to remove their masks
in federal buildings and restaurants. Then maybe a story about a city in CA that fines people for wearing them.

[*Nately120*]

(09-06-2023, 06:16 PM)Dill Wrote: Might take a little more. Fauci would have to come out of retirement and claim going without masks is
the proper woke thing to do. Money from mask companies goes to Israel or gun manufacturers.

Then a couple people need to appear on Fox with stories of how they were forced to remove their masks
in federal buildings and restaurants. Then maybe a story about a city in CA that fines people for wearing them.

All you need to do is point out that if there are more lockdowns the economy will suffer and Trump will win in 2024. 

[*michaelsean*]

My son and hundreds of thousands of others had no prom and no graduation. Well heck it was our best advice. I’m 56 and remember my prom and graduation. He’s 22 and doesn’t.

[*Nately120*]

(09-06-2023, 09:01 PM)michaelsean Wrote: My son and hundreds of thousands of others had no prom and no graduation. Well heck it was our best advice. I’m 56 and remember my prom and graduation. He’s 22 and doesn’t.

I'm 41 and I'll always have the memory of slow dancing to that stupid Aerosmith song from the late 90s disaster movie with some chick I dated for like 3 weeks.  I wouldn't trade that for all the intubations other people had to suffer through.

(09-06-2023, 09:50 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Nobody was cheering for the riots. Understanding the reasoning behind them doesn't equal condoning them.

Can't we just pretend those riots were a civil war and that a civil war where Americans harm each other is apparently exactly what the doctor has ordered to fix this country in some manner?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(09-06-2023, 05:25 PM)Eraserhead Wrote: Ha, if Biden came out as anti-mask tomorrow,, a whole lot of conservatives would probably start wearing them 24/7. 

No they wouldn't but they would say "told you so"

[*Nately120*]

(09-07-2023, 09:40 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: No they wouldn't but they would say "told you so"

And then liberals would say "told you so" when conservatives admitted that Biden said something they agreed with and/or didn't just blather out a bunch of dementia code.

You know, I used to joke that my friends who became teachers were determined to be stuck in high school for the rest of their lives, but by talking endlessly about current politics I'm convinced I've regressed to an elementary school level playground.

TOLDJA SOOO!!!!!!!!! NYEAAAA NYEAAAHHHH!!!!

[Luvnit2]

(09-06-2023, 05:05 PM)Eraserhead Wrote: If you don't personally know someone who died of cancer,, does that mean cancer numbers are inflated or incentivized to be higher? Where's your proof that what you're saying is true other than just your own opinion?

My brother died of COVID at 26 years old. He was a firefighter,, super healthy,, no underlying issues. He suffered for 2 long weeks and then passed away in the middle of the night. So, please don't come on here trying to make it sound like the ONLY people who died from COVID were ones who already had health issues. It's crazy disrespectful to those of us that lost people that didn't have health issues.

I am truly sorry for your loss.  My family lost my 9 year old niece due to the flu. It is devastating losing a loved one, even more so when they had so much life left to live.

Prayers for you and your family.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-07-2023, 08:51 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm 41 and I'll always have the memory of slow dancing to that stupid Aerosmith song from the late 90s disaster movie with some chick I dated for like 3 weeks.  I wouldn't trade that for all the intubations other people had to suffer through.



Can't we just pretend those riots were a civil war and that a civil war where Americans harm each other is apparently exactly what the doctor has ordered to fix this country in some manner?

Yes and they suffered through them despite no prom and no graduation.  A couple of pretty big events in someone's life, but no problem.  It was the best advice they had at the time.

[*Nately120*]

(09-07-2023, 05:51 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Yes and they suffered through them despite no prom and no graduation.  A couple of pretty big events in someone's life, but no problem.  It was the best advice they had at the time.

If it makes you feel any better my teen niece damn near tacitly killed my mother in law by living her best life and spreading covid.  I assume when she found her grandmother nearly breathless and had to call an ambulance her mind was totally on the prom or wearing a cap and gown.  Seeing my wife deal with her feelings of guilt for being pissed that her family was so into taking the advice of the conspiracy wormhole, was interesting too.

Still, you'll be glad to know I'm honest enough to admit that if covid stuff happens again I'm pretty much not going to do anything this time because let's get real, most people aren't even going to bother the second time around.

[*michaelsean*]

(09-07-2023, 06:32 PM)Nately120 Wrote: If it makes you feel any better my teen niece damn near tacitly killed my mother in law by living her best life and spreading covid.  I assume when she found her grandmother nearly breathless and had to call an ambulance her mind was totally on the prom or wearing a cap and gown.  Seeing my wife deal with her feelings of guilt for being pissed that her family was so into taking the advice of the conspiracy wormhole, was interesting too.

Still, you'll be glad to know I'm honest enough to admit that if covid stuff happens again I'm pretty much not going to do anything this time because let's get real, most people aren't even going to bother the second time around.

Nope