Auden Tate building on from last year

[*pally*]

Apparently Auden spent some time in the off season working with Anquan Boldin. Not a bad mentor at all

[Au165]

(08-27-2020, 06:03 PM)pally Wrote: Apparently Auden spent some time in the off season working with Anquan Boldin. Not a bad mentor at all

Nope, not at all. He was a guy who mastered setting guys up to make up for some speed issues. Tate’s biggest issue last year to me was his first move at the line. Didn’t have much of a setup and waited until he went to stem the guy to set them up. I’d like him to use the split step off the line that Dez used really well to get a better release.

[fredtoast]

(08-27-2020, 05:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I don't blame you for not answering the question posed. I thought we were discussing catch percentage and where they ranked compared to their peers. Seemed important to you earlier. 

I just compared him to his peers.  If we are talking about NFL WRs or QBs I don't understand why we would limit the discussion to just 9 players.  If Boyd ranks 9th does that mean the Bengals had the 9th best QBs in the league?

[fredtoast]

(08-27-2020, 05:47 PM)Au165 Wrote:  Your premise here that you keep defending is that you can not tell if a route was run poorly on tape, which would mean every college scout and analyst is looking at what when they comment on route running? 

You can tell if a receiver is quick in and out of his cuts and able to get separation through route running, but you can't tell if he is running the proper depth.

I've heard plenty of receivers talking about adjusting their routes based on coverage.  Even you admitted this.  I am just asking how you can tell if the receiver ran the wrong route or the QB made a bad pass.

[Au165]

(08-27-2020, 06:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You can tell if a receiver is quick in and out of his cuts and able to get separation through route running, but you can't tell if he is running the proper depth.

I've heard plenty of receivers talking about adjusting their routes based on coverage.  Even you admitted this.  I am just asking how you can tell if the receiver ran the wrong route or the QB made a bad pass.

Yes you can, you are wrong, not sure what else to tell you.

Two kinds of adjustments there are options and there are route combo specific adjustments. An option will turn a route into a different using the same depths and rules as always apply but change the break at the top of the stem. A combo specific adjustment would occur for example if you had a smash concept on one side of the field and you had cover 2. Against cover 2, number two will flatten the break on the corner because the hitch will pull the squatter down and you aren’t going to throw into the safety. If you had cover 3 the hitch may hold the corner but your going to throw the more angled corner because that’s the gap between the CB and potential safety help. These adjustments are somewhat universal, more so based on the combo than the coverage as the adjustment would once again change on a different combo against the same coverages.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-27-2020, 06:03 PM)pally Wrote: Apparently Auden spent some time in the off season working with Anquan Boldin.  Not a bad mentor at all

(08-27-2020, 06:09 PM)Au165 Wrote: Nope, not at all. He was a guy who mastered setting guys up to make up for some speed issues. Tate’s biggest issue last year to me was his first move at the line. Didn’t have much of a setup and waited until he went to stem the guy to set them up. I’d like him to use the split step off the line that Dez used really well to get a better release.

Couldn't have a better WR to work with honestly. Both are not blazers so it helps when you get knowledge from a guy that just 
knows how to get open with his routes and has great hands. Plus Boldin was a good blocker as well. Man, think Auden could 
really help us if injuries do occur. Which they do every year.

[fredtoast]

(08-27-2020, 05:47 PM)Au165 Wrote:  If you believe that catch % is a legit stat that is fine, most don’t including PFF (at least the simple formula your using here).

Is that the same PFF that rated Odell Beckham 10 spots LOWER than Auden Tate as a WR last year?

[fredtoast]

(08-27-2020, 06:21 PM)Au165 Wrote: Yes you can, you are wrong, not sure  what else to tell you.

Pretty simple.  Just answer my question.  How can you tell the difference.

Just saying I am wrong proves nothing.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-27-2020, 06:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Pretty simple.  Just answer my question.  How can you tell the difference.

Just saying I am wrong proves nothing.

He said you were wrong and then showed you why and you just ignored it. Go figure.

[Au165]

(08-27-2020, 06:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Pretty simple.  Just answer my question.  How can you tell the difference.

Just saying I am wrong proves nothing.

I mean I kind of have, you’ve provided no insight that you can’t other than an incorrect assumption you can’t.

You do this thing all the time where you talk out of your ass, but know nothing about what you speak on. I have a proposal, we will jump on a zoom call and pull up a digital whiteboard and see who knows what. We will take turns drawing plays against various defense in various downs and distances. We will explain routes (and route depths for shits and giggles) options on said routes, QB drop depth, progressions and checks. We can invite anyone from the board who wants to come watch but the only catch will be full room face cams so we make sure no one is trying to quickly google answers.

Deal?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-27-2020, 06:45 PM)Au165 Wrote: I mean I kind of have, you’ve provided no insight that you can’t other than an incorrect assumption you can’t.

You do this thing all the time where you talk out of your ass, but know nothing about what you speak on. I have a proposal, we will jump on a zoom call and pull up a digital whiteboard and see who knows what. We will take turns drawing plays against various defense in various downs and distances. We will explain routes (and route depths for shits and giggles) options on said routes, QB drop depth, progressions and checks. We can invite anyone from the board who wants to come watch but the only catch will be full room face cams so we make sure no one is trying to quickly google answers.

Deal?

I have a sneaking suspicion Fred will not accept.

[fredtoast]

(08-27-2020, 06:45 PM)Au165 Wrote: I mean I kind of have, you’ve provided no insight that you can’t other than an incorrect assumption you can’t.

I never claimed you could tell the difference.  So I don't have anything to prove.

All I did was ask "how" and you can't give me an answer.  All you say is "look at film".

You clearly stated that either the QB could make a mistake or the receiver could make a mistake.  All I am asking is how you know when the receiver makes the mistake instead of the QB.

[*bfine32*]

(08-27-2020, 06:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I just compared him to his peers.  If we are talking about NFL WRs or QBs I don't understand why we would limit the discussion to just 9 players.  If Boyd ranks 9th does that mean the Bengals had the 9th best QBs in the league?

I just get a kick out of watching you argue against yourself. It's why I often use the exact same criteria you use and then watch you argue about how it doesn't matter or you "don't understand"

Auden Tate was among league leaders in drawing DPI. Despite only having 80 target he was interfered with 5 times. 

Auden Tate had 2 dropped passes last year

Auden Tate went from 4 catches for 35 yards to 40 catches for 575 yards

Auden Tate improved drastically and is showing great promise but you must argue against it because.....

[fredtoast]

(08-27-2020, 06:45 PM)Au165 Wrote: I mean I kind of have, you’ve provided no insight that you can’t other than an incorrect assumption you can’t.

You do this thing all the time where you talk out of your ass, but know nothing about what you speak on. I have a proposal, we will jump on a zoom call and pull up a digital whiteboard and see who knows what. We will take turns drawing plays against various defense in various downs and distances. We will explain routes (and route depths for shits and giggles) options on said routes, QB drop depth, progressions and checks. We can invite anyone from the board who wants to come watch but the only catch will be full room face cams so we make sure no one is trying to quickly google answers.

Deal?

How about I post a video of a pass play and you point out exactly how you can tell if the QB made a bad pass or the WR ran a poor route.

Deal?

[*bfine32*]

(08-27-2020, 06:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I never claimed you could tell the difference.  So I don't have anything to prove.

All I did was ask "how" and you can't give me an answer.  All you say is "look at film".

You clearly stated that either the QB could make a mistake or the receiver could make a mistake.  All I am asking is how you know when the receiver makes the mistake instead of the QB.

Because the receiver is still on the team battling for a top 3 position while the QB is a back up playing for peanuts because no team in the NFL wanted him as a starter and wouldn't even give us a conditional 2036 supplimental 12th round draft pick for him. 

I'd wager the NFL watched the film and gave you your answer. 

[Au165]

(08-27-2020, 06:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How about I post a video of a pass play and you point out exactly how you can tell if the QB made a bad pass or the WR ran a poor route.

Deal?

Sure, in our zoom call you can do that and I’ll do the same and ask you what the passing play was, what the route combos were, and what the reads were.

Since you’ve spent the thread answering every question with a question I’m guessing the answer to my last question was a no.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(08-27-2020, 06:41 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: He said you were wrong and then showed you why and you just ignored it. Go figure.

Exhausting isn’t it?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(08-27-2020, 06:55 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Because the receiver is still on the team battling for a top 3 position while the QB is a back up playing for peanuts because no team in the NFL wanted him as a starter and wouldn't even give us a conditional 2036 supplimental 12th round draft pick for him. 

I'd wager the NFL watched the film and gave you your answer. 

What the rest of the league thinks can only be used to discredit Josh Bynes...

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-27-2020, 07:12 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Exhausting isn’t it?

Yeah, I need a brewskie.

[Whatever]

(08-27-2020, 02:42 PM)Au165 Wrote: We have done this a bunch, if you look at his advanced analytics he was thrown far lower quality passes than most the guys on the team and compared to the league as a whole. That usually gets someone to respond he must be a poor route runner, which isn't true when you turn on the tape. To me it comes down to the routes he was asked to run were usually lower percentage throws (no screens, drags, etc) but may have also been Andy's thought process of making him "go get it" because he can and usually those throws are safer in terms of interceptions if they are not caught. When you actually watch all of his targets the ball is just never put on him or in front, it is really odd to see.

Before we get there I guess I'll add the stats:

Player            Target Quality Rating  League Rank
Auden Tate               4.4                     97
Tyler Boyd                5.2                     62
John Ross                 7.3                      8

Player         Catchable Target Rate  League Rank
Auden Tate            65.4%                   100
Tyler Boyd             76.9%                    58
John Ross              78.6%                    44

This is a conversation I have gone round and round on probably 3 or 4 times here. I usually end up posting a video clip of all his targets in the Ravens game that showed him having to leave his feet on almost every throw because the ball was placed so god awfully. I then usually follow that up with Buffalo where at least one interception was the result of an absolutely horribly placed ball to him.

He is not going to get screens and drag routes because those are designed to get the ball to YAC threats in space.  It's not really fair to say that the others have their stats inflated by running certain routes when Tate doesn't have the skill set to be a viable option on those routes.  That's probably my biggest issue with him as a player.  He has a very narrow skill set as a receiving option.

The other issue with that argument is that Tate gets worse separation than Boyd and Ross, so defenders are going to affect the throw to him more.  Ross has more Targeted Air Yards than either by a wide margin, but has a higher target quality because he can separate quicker and create easier throws despite operating further upfield.  I know you're dismissive of separation, but there appears to be a correlation there.

He's also not a good route runner.  In the Baltimore game you're referring to, he makes a diving catch on an out route where he starts his break just inside the 10 and makes the catch near the 6.  You can't round your route off 3-1/2 yards up field.  I give him props for making the grab, but that's an example of a "poor throw" he created by running a bad route.  Also in that Baltimore game, he had two back shoulder throws he jumped for.  That's common among big receivers with bad footwork.  They jump and rotate their bodies in the air to make the grab because they don't have good enough footwork to get around for it.  Honestly, if you look through most of Tate's highlights, most of them are just back shoulder throws he's jumping to get his body around for.

He's not a guy you want out there every down because he has a limited skill set and a lot of routes that he's simply ineffective running, so it allows the defense to cheat.  He's a good possession 4th WR.  He could hypothetically be a good red zone threat, but he has yet to show it.