Bad Boys II

[*PhilHos*]

(05-31-2018, 02:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You already admitted that he did.

Why play this game?

What game? You said if he complied there was nothing to lawyer up about. If the cop was abusing his authority and/or violating any of this dude's civil rights, there would be PLENTY to lawyer up about. If, by your own admission, there was nothing to lawyer up about, then I can only surmise you think the cop did nothing wrong.

[fredtoast]

(05-31-2018, 02:32 PM)PhilHos Wrote: What game? You said if he complied there was nothing to lawyer up about. If the cop was abusing his authority and/or violating any of this dude's civil rights, there would be PLENTY to lawyer up about. If, by your own admission, there was nothing to lawyer up about, then I can only surmise you think the cop did nothing wrong.

The cop was being an antagonistic ass hole.  You already admitted that he was wrong to do that.  Why are you defending him now?  Just because there would be no serious punishment for being an antagonistic ass hole does not mean it is okay to do it.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-31-2018, 02:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The cop was being an antagonistic ass hole.  You already admitted that he was wrong to do that.  Why are you defending him now?  Just because there would be no serious punishment for being an antagonistic ass hole does not mean it is okay to do it.

How am I defending him?

[fredtoast]

(05-31-2018, 02:41 PM)PhilHos Wrote: How am I defending him?

By acting like you don't know what he did wrong.  We both saw what he did and you already admitted he did something wrong.  The fact that it does not rise to the level of excessive force does not mean he did nothing wrong.

[Griever]

(05-31-2018, 02:23 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Good safety tip. When a LEO is involved in an altercation on of the least wise things to do would be to pull out a shiny object and aim it at them. 

I guess cops need more training on the differences between a gun and a phone

I know phones scare them because it can show the public if they are being pieces of shit

[Griever]

(05-31-2018, 02:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: By acting like you don't know what he did wrong.  We both saw what he did and you already admitted he did something wrong.  The fact that it does not rise to the level of excessive force does not mean he did nothing wrong.

"If the cop was white, then he was in the right"

[*PhilHos*]

(05-31-2018, 02:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: By acting like you don't know what he did wrong.  We both saw what he did and you already admitted he did something wrong.  The fact that it does not rise to the level of excessive force does not mean he did nothing wrong.

I'm acting like I don't know what he did wrong even though I've admitted he did something wrong? Did you think about that before you typed it out?

[fredtoast]

(05-31-2018, 03:00 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I'm acting like I don't know what he did wrong even though I've admitted he did something wrong? Did you think about that before you typed it out?

Yes.


You said "So the cop did nothing wrong?" after you admitted he did something wrong.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-31-2018, 03:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes.


You said "So the cop did nothing wrong?" after you admitted he did something wrong.

Do you know how conversations work? I was challenging YOUR statement that there was no reason for the dude to lawyer up after complying with the cop. I was implying that YOUR statement indicated the cop did nothing wrong.

It's a common tactic around here. One that BOTH of us have used many times. The fact I have to explain this to you is kinda surprising.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-14-2018, 04:54 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Considering today's climate, I would be very surprised to find your average citizen, let alone police officer, that openly racist that they would call the cops on a couple of black people who weren't doing anything. Or that the cops would also be so openly racist that they would have no problem geting unnecessarily physical.

However, I do tend to believe the best in humanity so maybe that's just me.

It's been a while since I posted on this board and in my first post back I'm actually siding with fredtoast on this. What have you done PhilHos?

Anyway.... I'm kind of in disbelief by your statement. What exactly is it about "today's climate" that makes it hard to believe that an average citizen would call the police on some black guys "doing nothing wrong"? You know what's funny is the remark itself is pretty subjective because it's left up to everyone's personal opinion of what exactly should be considered "doing something wrong" enough for the cops to need to be called. For some people, being black is enough "wrong" for the cops to be called.

Just for the record, I don't think I've ever stated my race on here (at least I don't think I have) but I am black. A black man in fact. And I have had the cops called on me when I was doing absolutely nothing wrong. My wife was actually in disbelief when I told her the story because she couldn't believe it and thought things like that "doesn't really happen". My wife is white by the way.

You know what I was doing "wrong" that warranted the cops being called on me? I was in a parking lot changing the tires on my car..... Seriously. It was a nice sunny Saturday and I thought "Hey it'd be nice to change my tires today" so I pulled into the parking lot by my apartment and started changing my tires. About a half hour into changing them I see a cop coming down the street in his patrol car. I saw him flip on his blinker and begin to turn into the lot and I immediately said to myself "Annnnnnd here we go".

The cop gets out of his car and walks up to me and asks what's going on and I tell him I'm just changing the tires on my car. The cop then literally says to me, and I'm not making this up that, "We just got a call in about you out here messing with your car". And then he proceeds to ask me questions about my car and even flat out asks me if it's MY CAR, and asked for my license and all that good jazz. You think the person that called the cops was just being a good "average citizen" and wanted to have the cops bring me a glass of lemonade?

I'll tell you why they called the cops that day.

The neighborhood I live in is a predominately white neighborhood. The car that I drive is a clean white dodge charger. When I pulled into that lot and got out of my car to work on my tires some individual who lives in one of the nearby houses saw that I was black and that I was driving a nice car and thought that either 1) I stole it or 2) that I must be selling drugs to be able to afford it. 

Do you honestly believe that if I had been a white guy the cops would have been called?

[*michaelsean*]

(05-31-2018, 06:13 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: It's been a while since I posted on this board and in my first post back I'm actually siding with fredtoast on this. What have you done PhilHos?

Anyway.... I'm kind of in disbelief by your statement. What exactly is it about "today's climate" that makes it hard to believe that an average citizen would call the police on some black guys "doing nothing wrong"? You know what's funny is the remark itself is pretty subjective because it's left up to everyone's personal opinion of what exactly should be considered "doing something wrong" enough for the cops to need to be called. For some people, being black is enough "wrong" for the cops to be called.

Just for the record, I don't think I've ever stated my race on here (at least I don't think I have) but I am black. A black man in fact. And I have had the cops called on me when I was doing absolutely nothing wrong. My wife was actually in disbelief when I told her the story because she couldn't believe it and thought things like that "doesn't really happen". My wife is white by the way.

You know what I was doing "wrong" that warranted the cops being called on me? I was in a parking lot changing the tires on my car..... Seriously. It was a nice sunny Saturday and I thought "Hey it'd be nice to change my tires today" so I pulled into the parking lot by my apartment and started changing my tires. About a half hour into changing them I see a cop coming down the street in his patrol car. I saw him flip on his blinker and begin to turn into the lot and I immediately said to myself "Annnnnnd here we go".

The cop gets out of his car and walks up to me and asks what's going on and I tell him I'm just changing the tires on my car. The cop then literally says to me, and I'm not making this up that, "We just got a call in about you out here messing with your car". And then he proceeds to ask me questions about my car and even flat out asks me if it's MY CAR, and asked for my license and all that good jazz. You think the person that called the cops was just being a good "average citizen" and wanted to have the cops bring me a glass of lemonade?

I'll tell you why they called the cops that day.

The neighborhood I live in is a predominately white neighborhood. The car that I drive is a clean white dodge charger. When I pulled into that lot and got out of my car to work on my tires some individual who lives in one of the nearby houses saw that I was black and that I was driving a nice car and thought that either 1) I stole it or 2) that I must be selling drugs to be able to afford it. 

Do you honestly believe that if I had been a white guy the cops would have been called?

Hey MATT we figured out the man part.

Generally I’ll blame the person who called more than the cop. They rely on people seeing something suspicious and calling it in. They don’t know that for a particular person black=suspicious. Btw...who doesn’t think black people can afford a Dodge? That’s extra bad. “He’s driving a Caravan and I’ve never seen an honest black man that can afford a Caravan”

[fredtoast]

No matter how much proof you provide about racial profiling by police and racists action by citizens there are some white people who just refuse to believe it.

They are white so they don't usually see it. Therefore it does not exist "in this day and age".

[SunsetBengal]

(05-31-2018, 09:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No matter how much proof you provide about racial profiling by police

So, a significant portion of law enforcement officers are also black.  Now, can you imagine any sort of reason that an officer of color would "profile" against another of his own race, that has endured the same harsh treatments and sufferings?  

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-31-2018, 08:45 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Hey MATT we figured out the man part.

Generally I’ll blame the person who called more than the cop. They rely on people seeing something suspicious and calling it in. They don’t know that for a particular person black=suspicious. Btw...who doesn’t think black people can afford a Dodge?  That’s extra bad. “He’s driving a Caravan and I’ve never seen an honest black man that can afford a Caravan”

I never thought of it that way. Man now this feels extra insulting lol. But yeah, people seem to think chargers are super expensive.

And I don't really blame the cop. Had he just pulled up on me and asked me everything he was asking, then I'd be more critical. I just brushed it off and finished what I was doing. Because little did the cop know, it wasn't the car I stole.... it was the tires!!!

[*michaelsean*]

(05-31-2018, 11:23 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I never thought of it that way. Man now this feels extra insulting lol. But yeah, people seem to think chargers are super expensive.

And I don't really blame the cop. Had he just pulled up on me and asked me everything he was asking, then I'd be more critical. I just brushed it off and finished what I was doing. Because little did the cop know, it wasn't the car I stole.... it was the tires!!!

I like the Charger, and thought a moment about getting one, but I'm 51 and I don't know.  It doesn't seem to fit.

[fredtoast]

(05-31-2018, 10:02 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So, a significant portion of law enforcement officers are also black.  Now, can you imagine any sort of reason that an officer of color would "profile" against another of his own race, that has endured the same harsh treatments and sufferings?  

Because they are instructed to?

What is your point?

You are not trying to claim that police do not racially profile minorities are you?

[SunsetBengal]

(06-01-2018, 11:42 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Because they are instructed to?

What is your point?

You are not trying to claim that police do not racially profile minorities are you?

I'm saying that they're not being profiled because they are a minority, I'm saying that they're being profiled because of a history of street crime.

Are you saying that the police should just ignore crime, because they're minorities?  

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-01-2018, 11:42 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Because they are instructed to?

LOL, no.

Quote:What is your point?

You are not trying to claim that police do not racially profile minorities are you?

They don't, actually.  Many factors contribute to initiating contact with a person or group of persons.  Literally the only time ethnicity would play into that decision is if a group is in a totally out of place location.  For example, if you see a car load of white kids in a "black neighborhood" you might find their being there suspicious.  Other factors, such as their body language and reaction to noticing law enforcement would further contribute.  Ethnicity, on it's own, is not a determining factor.  Are there LEO's that harbor racist feelings?  Sure, but they are a significant minority, nor are all of them from one specific ethnic group.  Oddly enough, as LEO's are human beings they have the same issues that everyone else does in this regard.

Let me ask you something in this vein.  Between a group of Hispanic adult women and a group of white teenage boys, who would first attract the attention of law enforcement?

[fredtoast]

(06-01-2018, 11:58 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: They don't, actually. 

Actual police disagree with you

Off Duty black NYP officers claim to be targets of racial profiling...http://gawker.com/nypd-racial-profiling-captures-off-duty-black-cops-1674627902

St. Louis Police chief fired for ordering officers to concentrate on arresting blacks at a mall....http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/st-louis-county-police-lieutenant-who-allegedly-targeted-blacks-is/article_691eb995-7247-5c0b-a48b-e7048c777b37.html


There are many studies showing that police racially profile.  The most famous is the NYC "stop and frisk" policy where only 9% of the stops involved white people and 98% of the stops found no contraband.  So cop were stopping innocent people for no reason and 91% of them were minorities.

In a study of 313 random traffic stops in Cincinnati in '03-'04 it was found that "Blacks were between three and five times more likely to (a) be asked if they were carrying drugs or weapons, (b) be asked to leave the vehicle, © be searched, (d) have a passenger searched, and (e) have the vehicle physically searched in a study conducted. .  https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1460-2466.2008.00398.x

A study from Richmond Virginia in 2001 found that blacks were stopped at a disproportionate rate based on their percentage of population even though whites were more likely to be ticketed or arrested when stopped. http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1098611101004001001

A 2009 study of traffic stops in West Virginia showed that minorities were 1.5 times more likely ot be stopped and 2.5 times more likely to have their vehicles searched than white people despite the fact that white people were MORE LIKELY to have contraband in their possession.


The list goes on and on.  Police think minorities are more likely to be criminals, so they concentrate more on minorities.  But this turns out to be a self fulfilling prophesy.  Since they concentrate more on minorities they en dup arresting more minorities.

[Belsnickel]

(06-01-2018, 11:58 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: LOL, no.


They don't, actually.  Many factors contribute to initiating contact with a person or group of persons.  Literally the only time ethnicity would play into that decision is if a group is in a totally out of place location.  For example, if you see a car load of white kids in a "black neighborhood" you might find their being there suspicious.  Other factors, such as their body language and reaction to noticing law enforcement would further contribute.  Ethnicity, on it's own, is not a determining factor.  Are there LEO's that harbor racist feelings?  Sure, but they are a significant minority, nor are all of them from one specific ethnic group.  Oddly enough, as LEO's are human beings they have the same issues that everyone else does in this regard.

Let me ask you something in this vein.  Between a group of Hispanic adult women and a group of white teenage boys, who would first attract the attention of law enforcement?

While I get what you're saying here, it is my understanding based on the work of Chris Uggen, that while people of color are more likely to be searched when pulled over for a traffic stop, white people are more likely to have illegal items in their possession. What this points to is that there may (I'm saying may because assigning motive is very difficult with these sorts of things) be something more at play than basing it more on suspicious activity and race may play a greater role than many believe, including the officers themselves.

We have been led to believe for a long time that people of color, black men specifically, are more likely to be criminals. They are arrested, charged, and incarcerated at higher rates for longer sentences than other demographic groups. But the ethnographic data collected points to them not committing crimes at a rate any higher than white men, for instance.

This is one of the issues I have with the idea of "community policing" or other programs founded on the broken windows principles. There is a level of subjectivity there that is very easy to abuse and cause inequity in our application of the criminal justice system. I just wish we had a good way to really fix it, because that is difficult. As you say, LEOs are human beings and they will have the same flaws as anyone else. Same for prosecutors and judges. I don't harbor the notion that we will ever solve this issue 100%, I just wish we could have productive conversations about it.