Ben Carson: It was OK for me to do research on aborted fetuses

[GMDino]

(08-15-2015, 11:15 AM)bfine32 Wrote: 2 things:

1. You can tout your credentials all you want, but that still doesn't change the fact that biologists recognize that life begins at conception. There may be an outlier or two, but they are generally not taken very seriously. Doctors use before conception to determine viability not to asert this is when life begins.

2. This thread has derailed from the OP and I accept a great deal of the blame. If anyone wishes to make points unrelated to the Ben Carson issue (wish admittedly seems quite embarrassing) I suggest they do so in the Rubio thread.

Exchange "climate change" with "life begins" and see how disingenuous you are being.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-15-2015, 11:15 AM)bfine32 Wrote: 2 things:

1. You can tout your credentials all you want,

You are the one who brought up my line of work. I'm not touting anything, but rather responding to your comment.

Quote:but that still doesn't change the fact that biologists recognize that life begins at conception.

False.   As I have already explained sperm cells are alive before conception.  Biologist don't recognize a universally accepted "start" to life. The Supreme Court recognizes this fact as one of the reasons they didn't rule on when life begins.

Quote:There may be an outlier or two, but they are generally not taken very seriously.

Actually, the complete opposite is true.

Quote:Doctors use before conception to determine viability not to asert this is when life begins.

Completely false. We use it to estimate gestational age which is different than embryonic age. It doesn't assess viability. The viability of a pregnancy is assessed by ultrasound and serial quantitative HCG measurements.

Quote:2. This thread has derailed from the OP and I accept a great deal of the blame. If anyone wishes to make points unrelated to the Ben Carson issue (wish admittedly seems quite embarrassing) I suggest they do so in the Rubio thread.

I'm not embarrassed by Ben Carson's lie.   What we are discussing is germane to the topic of why Ben Carson believes using fetal tissue for research is immoral. I will comment on what I want, when I want, where I want, for as long as I want. Thank you.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-15-2015, 10:19 AM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: Sperm and egg cells, although alive, do not have the ability to ever become a fully functioning adult human being on their own.  A fertilized egg contains 23 pairs of chromosomes, which is all of the information needed to map out 80+ years of human life.  The sperm and the egg need each other to obtain this information. 

Thus life has already started before conception.

I don't dispute anything you wrote.

[Shake n Blake]

(08-15-2015, 01:57 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Thus life has already started before conception.

I don't dispute anything you wrote.

The discussion is about when life begins. The life that's being discussed is that of a human being, not an individual sperm or egg, neither of which can become a human on it's own. 

So...life (of a human being) begins at conception.

[BonnieBengal]

(08-15-2015, 05:42 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: None of these guys think that... They all think she was the greatest person ever.    

They are in constant denial of their support of eugenics and Sanger's beliefs....  They are just too afraid to actually admit they support negative eugenics like sanger.

Yeah I noticed they are staying away from this issue.

[BonnieBengal]

Maybe life begins even before conception. This tells me maybe God creates the soul first. Jeremiah 1:5 New King James Version (NKJV)

5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

[GodHatesBengals]

(08-15-2015, 03:25 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: Yeah I noticed they are staying away from this issue.

Yeah, for some bizarre reason people are talking about today instead of a woman who died half a century ago. Dem crazy lbruls.

[GodHatesBengals]

(08-15-2015, 03:29 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: Maybe life begins even before conception.  This tells me maybe God creates the soul first.   Jeremiah 1:5  New King James Version (NKJV)

5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

Oh, is it Bible study time now?! Here's my favorite verse: Deuteronomy 22:23-24 (NKJV)

23 If a young woman who is a virgin is betrothed to a husband, and a man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he humbled his neighbor’s wife; so you shall put away the evil from among you.

Yes, our nation should be founded on these wonderful biblical values.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-15-2015, 03:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The discussion is about when life begins. The life that's being discussed is that of a human being, not an individual sperm or egg, neither of which can become a human on it's own. 

So...life (of a human being) begins at conception.

Are sperm and egg cells alive or dead?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-15-2015, 03:25 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: Yeah I noticed they are staying away from this issue.

I directly addressed both your Sanger comments.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-15-2015, 03:53 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Are sperm and egg cells alive or dead?

Does a sperm or egg cell create life on their own?  What kind of argument is this?

You've made some good posts on this topic before, whether I personally agree with them or not.

This is not one of them.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-15-2015, 03:29 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: Maybe life begins even before conception.  This tells me maybe God creates the soul first.   Jeremiah 1:5  New King James Version (NKJV)

5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you;
Before you were born I sanctified you;
I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”

What comes before conception? Individual sperm and egg cells. Do they have individual rights?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-15-2015, 03:57 PM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: Does a sperm or egg cell create life on their own?  What kind of argument is this?

You've made some good posts on this topic before, whether I personally agree with them or not.

This is not one of them.  

You misquoted me. I didn't ask if they created their own life. I asked are they alive?  Yes or no.

[jakefromstatefarm]

(08-15-2015, 03:59 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You misquoted me. I didn't ask if they created their own life. I asked are they alive?  Yes or no.

Yes, scientifically speaking they are alive.  They are not capable of producing life on their own though. 

I don't understand the argument is what I'm saying. 

If a guy blows one in kleenex while watching internet porn (or Andy's dong), I wouldn't consider him guilty of killing anything. 

I would in fact ridicule anyone who made such a claim.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-15-2015, 04:03 PM)jakefromstatefarm Wrote: Yes, scientifically speaking they are alive.  They are not capable of producing life on their own though. 

I don't understand the argument is what I'm saying. 

If a guy blows one in kleenex while watching internet porn (or Andy's dong), I wouldn't consider him guilty of killing anything. 

I would in fact ridicule anyone who made such a claim.  

Some argue that life begins at conception. How can life "begin" when the cells needed for conception are already alive?

[BonnieBengal]

(08-15-2015, 03:41 PM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: Oh, is it Bible study time now?! Here's my favorite verse: Deuteronomy 22:23-24 (NKJV)

23 If a young woman who is a virgin is betrothed to a husband, and a man finds her in the city and lies with her, 24 then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he humbled his neighbor’s wife; so you shall put away the evil from among you.

Yes, our nation should be founded on these wonderful biblical values.

The old Jewish law was for a different time.  Not ours.  We are not under the law. Christ came to fulfill the law. The best proof of that is very comparable to what you wrote above. Christ pardoned the woman caught in adultery. Under the law, that would have been punishable by death. What I quoted you was not from Jewish law but a word that God gave to Jeremiah.

[BonnieBengal]

(08-15-2015, 03:57 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: What comes before conception?  Individual sperm and egg cells. Do they have individual rights?

It appears to be by this verse that the soul is created first by God.  

[GMDino]

(08-15-2015, 04:57 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: The old Jewish law was for a different time.  Not ours.  We are not under the law.  Christ came to fulfill the law. The best proof of that is very comparable to what you wrote above.   Christ pardoned the woman caught in adultery.   Under the law, that would have been punishable by death.  What I quoted you was not from Jewish law but a word that God gave to Jeremiah.

Jeremiah was in the old testament...before Jesus.

[BonnieBengal]

(08-15-2015, 05:02 PM)GMDino Wrote: Jeremiah was in the old testament...before Jesus.

As I explained above, what was quoted to me was from the old Jewish laws. The law is in the first 5 books of the Old Testament. Jeremiah is not.  What I quoted had nothing to do with the law.  It was a word from God to Jeremiah about his creation.

[GMDino]

(08-15-2015, 05:06 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: As I explained above, what was quoted to me was from the old Jewish laws.  The law is in the first 5 books of the Old Testament.  Jeremiah is not.   What I quoted had nothing to do with the law.  It was a word from God to Jeremiah about his creation.

But what if they don't believe any god can make a law?  Old or new, or newish in the old?