Biden Wants 15/Hour Min Wage

[CJD]

(01-18-2021, 05:12 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: All of this discussion and we haven't really talked about the way in which we, the taxpayers, subsidize companies that don't pay their employees a livable wage. When companies aren't compensating their employees in a way where they can support themselves, the people make up for that difference with SNAP/EBT, Medicaid, etc.

I mean, I kinda mentioned it

Quote:2. It would lighten the load on the welfare system, allowing for the money to be allocated more appropriately or, Heaven forbid, get people off of the "government teat," like Republicans always claim they want to do.

[TheUberHuber]

(01-16-2021, 02:32 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Just another way the Dems way of thinking that everything should be handed out will end up hurting the country.

One major thing that I took away from the economics classes I have took in college was that raising the minimum wage to $15 leads to 2 things:

(1) The elimination of jobs: companies will deem some jobs not worthy of a $15 per hour salary & simply realize they do not need them. (Say goodbye to grocery store bag boys!)

(2) Inflation: to compensate for the lowest wage being paid being nearly doubled, jobs that currently pay $15 per hour will have to up their pay for employees as well. This simply just leads to the dollar being worth less. (Say hello to $10 for a gallon of milk & $12 for a McDonald’s cheeseburger combo!)

(3) The loss of small businesses... some small businesses who rely on teenage or other minimum wage employee help won’t be able to afford to hire employees that keep their lights on, ultimately leading to more reliance on big box companies who will be able to afford to pay workers these wages.

To increase one’s pay, one must learn to acquire the skills necessary to get a job that pays more than minimum wage. That is the beauty of capitalism- you can grow as far as you wish by increasing your skill level!

Does anyone think small businesses and our economy overall will be able to survive this?

You might want to consider retaking that class with a different professor who isn't completely full of s*#*. Unless you didn't pay attention and just making up that you were tought that, which is probably more likely. 

Raising the minimum wage will do none of those things. 

[Belsnickel]

(01-18-2021, 05:14 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I mean, I kinda mentioned it

Meh, that assumes I wasn't too lazy to read everything being posted.

[Au165]

(01-18-2021, 05:12 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: All of this discussion and we haven't really talked about the way in which we, the taxpayers, subsidize companies that don't pay their employees a livable wage. When companies aren't compensating their employees in a way where they can support themselves, the people make up for that difference with SNAP/EBT, Medicaid, etc.

I brought that up on a tangent with the burner account who wanted to talk about handouts. This is really what should piss people off. Because some of the richest companies in the world don't pay a liveable wage we subsidize it so we lose out on the tax revenue from increased wages, the increase of purchases inside the economy, but also must PAY these corporations' employees so the corporations can pocket more profits. 

[*michaelsean*]

Hobby Lobby pays $17 an hour to start but the bastards don’t pay for birth control or something so eff them.

[NATI BENGALS]

One of the leading reasons for seeking abortions is they can’t afford it.

Wonder how our pro life crowd feels about their effort to not pay people a living wage resulting in more abortions.?

[BFritz21]

(01-18-2021, 05:14 PM)TheUberHuber Wrote: You might want to consider retaking that class with a different professor who isn't completely full of s*#*. Unless you didn't pay attention and just making up that you were tought that, which is probably more likely. 

Raising the minimum wage will do none of those things. 

Nice debate.  Totally convinced me.  No points or anything but rather just "it won't happen" because you said so.

Bravo.

[Belsnickel]

(01-18-2021, 05:59 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Hobby Lobby pays $17 an hour to start but the bastards don’t pay for birth control or something so eff them.

Well, **** them for trying to claim religious exemptions as a corporation. Also, that difference in pay would be eaten up by anyone needing the types of healthcare they are denying coverage for in their insurance plans which would be a lot of people considering how many women are on some form of contraceptive medication.

[SunsetBengal]

(01-18-2021, 04:50 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: The McDonald's cheeseburger combo example is interesting. Let's explore that a little bit.


Since the cost of labor has increased on a static level, the cost of the food will not increase at a proportional rate.

Not to nitpick what was a very well thought out and nicely presented post;  but with a wage increase in all job fields, how can the price of the food (McDonald's raw material) not go up?  There are literally millions of low wage farm and food production and processing jobs that contribute to the cost of food to be sold in stores or in restaurants.
 
Many people only think of service employees in populated areas, when they consider minimum wage employees.  When the floor wage is brought up, there is no way for cost of goods and services not to go up.

[Belsnickel]

(01-19-2021, 10:35 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Not to nitpick what was a very well thought out and nicely presented post;  but with a wage increase in all job fields, how can the price of the food (McDonald's raw material) not go up?  There are literally millions of low wage farm and food production and processing jobs that contribute to the cost of food to be sold in stores or in restaurants.
 
Many people only think of service employees in populated areas, when they consider minimum wage employees.  When the floor wage is brought up, there is no way for cost of goods and services not to go up.

There absolutely is a way for the costs to not go up.

First, you're working under the assumption that the margin needs to remain the same. It doesn't necessarily need to have the same markup. If the COGS increases slightly, how much actual impact is there on the profit margin and is it something that needs to be adjusted? Not necessarily.

Second, improving compensation can have positive results on productivity. If productivity is increased, then there is no need to increase the pricing to the consumer to make up the difference in COGS. How much would productivity need to be increased will be a different question for different industries and products.

The bottom line is that there are a number of ways for the increase in wages to be absorbed that are not an increase in end consumer pricing.

[CJD]

(01-19-2021, 10:35 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Not to nitpick what was a very well thought out and nicely presented post;  but with a wage increase in all job fields, how can the price of the food (McDonald's raw material) not go up?  There are literally millions of low wage farm and food production and processing jobs that contribute to the cost of food to be sold in stores or in restaurants.
 
Many people only think of service employees in populated areas, when they consider minimum wage employees.  When the floor wage is brought up, there is no way for cost of goods and services not to go up.

That's a fair point. I'm not intimately familiar with the food production side of the business so I can't say how many farm workers make minimum wage or are subject to minimum wage laws (I imagine at least a portion of this will get wrapped up in illegal work practices of hiring undocumented workers and paying them far below the minimum wage). But those operations tend to sell in bulk if I'm not mistaken, so the cost per unit would presumably follow the same trend as the burgers in that they won't scale proportionately to the increase in labor price.

The 2015 study estimated a 4.3% increase in the cost of goods, but I admittedly don't know if it accounted for the potential increase of ingredients or not. If it didn't, then that may have a cumulative effect on the final cost, but I'd be surprised if it caused a marked shift to the point where the burger is no longer affordable (say, within 1 dollar of the previous price).

[*michaelsean*]

(01-19-2021, 08:21 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, **** them for trying to claim religious exemptions as a corporation. Also, that difference in pay would be eaten up by anyone needing the types of healthcare they are denying coverage for in their insurance plans which would be a lot of people considering how many women are on some form of contraceptive medication.

It’s like $50 a month for birth control, but dammit they I just don’t like them!

[Belsnickel]

(01-19-2021, 12:34 PM)michaelsean Wrote: It’s like $50 a month for birth control, but dammit they I just don’t like them!

Yeah, that's not necessarily true on the cost, different brands are different and different areas have different costs. But hey, let's not let that get in the way of some hyperbolic high horsing.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-19-2021, 12:36 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, that's not necessarily true on the cost, different brands are different and different areas have different costs. But hey, let's not let that get in the way of some hyperbolic high horsing.

Ok give me the costs. $17 an hour is $4000 a year more than the minimum wage being pushed and that’s just the minimum starting pay.

[Belsnickel]

(01-19-2021, 01:12 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Ok give me the costs. $17 an hour is $4000 a year more than the minimum wage being pushed and that’s just the starting pay.

I'm not going to get into the weeds on this. You made a reductive comment about Hobby Lobby and the issues many people have with them. It isn't worth the hijacking of the thread to continue it further. Considering the variables involved it would be a long, drawn out disagreement and since you started off the conversation with such a reductive commentary, it's obvious your interest in any serious conversation on the topic is minimal.

[GMDino]

(01-19-2021, 10:35 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Not to nitpick what was a very well thought out and nicely presented post;  but with a wage increase in all job fields, how can the price of the food (McDonald's raw material) not go up?  There are literally millions of low wage farm and food production and processing jobs that contribute to the cost of food to be sold in stores or in restaurants.
 
Many people only think of service employees in populated areas, when they consider minimum wage employees.  When the floor wage is brought up, there is no way for cost of goods and services not to go up.

You're right about this that it's not just the employees of the building going up but also the people all along the chain.

To me that just points out how much our economy RELIES on people working for the bare minimum that they can't even live on so we can have a cheaper hamburger.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-19-2021, 08:21 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, **** them for trying to claim religious exemptions as a corporation. Also, that difference in pay would be eaten up by anyone needing the types of healthcare they are denying coverage for in their insurance plans which would be a lot of people considering how many women are on some form of contraceptive medication.

(Quoted the wrong post)

I see. I do have opinions. I think it’s funny to listen to people who employ nobody chastising those who employ people. I find the arrogance of whimsically spending other people’s money astounding. I think that when discussing minimum wage, using McDonalds as an example is ridiculous.

When my son wasn’t sure on going into college, I looked at trades just in case. I find out places like plumbing companies will hire you and pay you $12-$15 an hour to work for them as an apprentice, pay for any education you need, and then hire you on after three to four years where you will make forty to sixty thousand to start. I looked into this when I wasn’t sure of my job situation. It’s a tough few years to start , but then you’re good. I also looked at truck driving. They are begging for drivers and you can get tuition assistance and have a CDL in a very short time.

Edit: And you can oppose this for reasons other than corporate profits. I think companies should pay their people more if they can. Especially the giant ones with huge profits.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-18-2021, 04:50 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: The McDonald's cheeseburger combo example is interesting. Let's explore that a little bit.

Let's say the average staffing is 6 people working minimum wage or near minimum wage on any given shift. That means that you're paying ~44 dollars an hour for your daily operation (I know that they may amp it up to 8 or even 10 people during busy periods, but I think 6 people is your standard staffing, with skeleton staffs of 3 or 4 operating in non-peak hours assuming it didn't change drastically from when I worked in fast food ~15 years ago.)

Let's also say that a Big Mac combo costs about 7 dollars (that's how much it is per their app at my local McDonalds, this number obviously changes based on where you live to some extent.).

In order to break even on the cost of labor, at least 6.2 Big Mac combos must be sold per hour. This is not counting the cost of the ingredients and machinery to make those big macs, but we're going to be doing a cost delta here soon, so those costs will, for the most part, cancel out.

Now, let's say that the minimum wage is increased to 15 dollars an hour. The cost of wages for those 6 people will then increase to 90 dollars per hour. 

So, in order to break even on the cost of labor, that means that 12.86 Big Macs must be sold. Or, alternatively, those same 6.2 Big Macs must be sold at 14.52 rather than 7 dollars.

Now, this is assuming that the business only sells enough big macs to break even on the labor they employ, which is obviously silly. No McDonalds would staff 6 people per hour if they only sold 6 Big Macs and no McDonalds that only sold 6 big macs per hour would functionally operate today, regardless of the wages they pay their workers.

The more you increase the number of big macs sold per hour, the less you'd have to increase the cost of the Big Mac to account for the increase in wages of the workers. For example, if a McDonalds existed that sold, on average, 20 Big Macs per hour, they're currently raking in 140 dollars per hour in Big Mac sales. Subtract the current $43.50 for the minimum workers' wages and you have $96.50 in profits (disregarding the cost of ingredients). In order to make that same exact profit margin with a 15 dollar per hour minimum wage, the cost of those 20 Big Macs would only need to increase to $9.32 from $7.00.

If they average 30 Big Macs per hour, the increase would only need to be to $8.55. 40 Big Macs = $8.16 and so on.

Since the cost of labor has increased on a static level, the cost of the food will not increase at a proportional rate. No matter how many Big Macs those employees sell, they will only ever make 90 dollars per hour. So the more successful a McDonald's is, the lower they can price their food and remain mostly unaffected. Alternatively, they could make the food fractionally smaller to account for this change in wages (I don't know about you, but I know for a fact that Cadbury cream eggs have gotten smaller over the years but the price hasn't followed the same trendline. Hmmm....)

This article, published in 2015, estimates that increasing the minimum wage to 15 dollars per hour would increase the cost of a Big Mac by approximately 17 cents. 

Now, the interesting part of this whole thing is that when this article was written, a Big Mac cost $3.99 (this study examined only the Big Mac itself rather than the combo). They estimated that increasing the minimum wage increase would only increase it to $4.16.

Well, I just checked McDonald's app and, surprise surprise, the cost of a Big Mac right now is $4.19! And that's without the minimum wage increase!

These ***** are increasing the cost of their food to account for the inflation that has occurred in 5 years, but they have not had to increase the cost of the labor that generates those Big Macs! This is the utter absurdity of Capitalism. Prices will continue to go up and up and if you try to fight for higher wages for the poorest people, they'll threaten you with the increase in cost of goods that they're already doing anyway.


Don't let the corporations brain wash you into fighting your common man. People deserve a living wage. If it raises the price of a burger by a dollar, we'll survive. And, in the case that we do raise the minimum wage, the workers will too.

You assume they can sell and make an endless amount of Big Macs with no increase in staff.

[Belsnickel]

(01-19-2021, 02:15 PM)michaelsean Wrote: (Quoted the wrong post)

I see. I do have opinions. I think it’s funny to listen to people who employ nobody chastising those who employ people. I find the arrogance of whimsically spending other people’s money astounding. I think that when discussing minimum wage, using McDonalds as an example is ridiculous.

Well, my criticisms come from a place of political science and public policy, not one from a business management perspective. Though having a background in business as an accountant does afford me the understanding to know that corporations are entities separate from their owners and, therefore, shouldn't be afforded religious protections that would apply to the shareholders/owners. So my criticisms aren't about how they spend their money, just the audacity and the terrible SCOTUS interpretation it caused.

I also think using McD's when discussing minimum wage is stupid, but it's what everybody tends to use when the conversation comes up. It's the "burger flippers" that people focus on. Of course, it's those "burger flippers," and others like them, that were being lauded as "essential workers" just a few short months ago.

(01-19-2021, 02:15 PM)michaelsean Wrote: When my son wasn’t sure on going into college, I looked at trades just in case. I find out places like plumbing companies will hire you and pay you $12-$15 an hour to work for them as an apprentice, pay for any education you need, and then hire you on after three to four years where you will make forty to sixty thousand to start. I looked into this when I wasn’t sure of my job situation. It’s a tough few years to start , but then you’re good. I also looked at truck driving. They are begging for drivers and you can get tuition assistance and have a CDL in a very short time.

Oh, this isn't an argument that you have to sell me on. My father was an electrician, plumber, and all around handyman. His brother drilled wells. His father was a truck driver. His grandfather a coal miner and the other a farmer. I'm the first "professional" in my family; the first on my dad's side with a college education. The value of the trades and whatnot is something I am well aware of.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-19-2021, 02:32 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, my criticisms come from a place of political science and public policy, not one from a business management perspective. Though having a background in business as an accountant does afford me the understanding to know that corporations are entities separate from their owners and, therefore, shouldn't be afforded religious protections that would apply to the shareholders/owners. So my criticisms aren't about how they spend their money, just the audacity and the terrible SCOTUS interpretation it caused.

I also think using McD's when discussing minimum wage is stupid, but it's what everybody tends to use when the conversation comes up. It's the "burger flippers" that people focus on. Of course, it's those "burger flippers," and others like them, that were being lauded as "essential workers" just a few short months ago.


Oh, this isn't an argument that you have to sell me on. My father was an electrician, plumber, and all around handyman. His brother drilled wells. His father was a truck driver. His grandfather a coal miner and the other a farmer. I'm the first "professional" in my family; the first on my dad's side with a college education. The value of the trades and whatnot is something I am well aware of.

I didn’t mean your criticism of Hobby Lobby when I was talking about chastising companies who employ people. That was meant toward the wage argument. Me quoting the wrong post might be confusing.

Btw... during the oil boom in ND, McDonalds was offering $20 and still couldn’t staff enough to keep the dining room open. I almost signed on when I was up there for my job.