Biden Wants 15/Hour Min Wage

[*Nately120*]

(01-21-2021, 05:20 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Okay, fair enough. Has any argument swayed your belief in any way? Or do you still feel this is just a handout at the expense of small businesses?

If you have a small business that is ruined by this then you should only blame yourself for not working hard enough to be a big business. 

[Stewy]

Just throwing in a couple of cents here, since my wife and I were arguing with my daughter about this last night. For reference, my daughter is 23, in her last year of college, is extremely liberal, but doesn't research things on her own and just reads what other people write. My wife and I END conversations with her when she says she got her info. off a blog (rolls eyes).....anyway.

My daughter is in favor of a blanket 15$ minimum wage, but of course she has zero clue as to the implications to small business and the agricultural industry and other negative scenarios. So we discussed that, and her attitude is just "they're businesses and make money, so they should pay the costs". Naïve, but then so is she. Trickle up economics sounds good, but higher MW leads to higher costs (which she doesn't get), which puts another burden on the middle class. There is obviously a lot more to it, and you all have covered most of it, but I wanted to share the reality of one 23 year old's ignorance, innocence and naivete. One more year till she's on her own and gets to experience multitudes ugly realities of life and finance.

One a side note: Personally I have no problem with the bump up of the minimum wage as long as it carries with it the same exceptions associated with the current minimum wage.

[Belsnickel]

(01-21-2021, 05:27 PM)Stewy Wrote: Just throwing in a couple of cents here, since my wife and I were arguing with my daughter about this last night. For reference, my daughter is 23, in her last year of college, is extremely liberal, but doesn't research things on her own and just reads what other people write. My wife and I END conversations with her when she says she got her info. off a blog (rolls eyes).....anyway.

My daughter is in favor of a blanket 15$ minimum wage, but of course she has zero clue as to the implications to small business and the agricultural industry and other negative scenarios. So we discussed that, and her attitude is just "they're businesses and make money, so they should pay the costs". Naïve, but then so is she. Trickle up economics sounds good, but higher MW leads to higher costs (which she doesn't get), which puts another burden on the middle class. There is obviously a lot more to it, and you all have covered most of it, but I wanted to share the reality of one 23 year old's ignorance, innocence and naivete. One more year till she's on her own and gets to experience multitudes ugly realities of life and finance.

One a side note: Personally I have no problem with the bump up of the minimum wage as long as it carries with it the same exceptions associated with the current minimum wage.

Not trying to bash you on this, but I find the irony in your post rather humorous. The research does not show that there are significant price increases with adjustments to the minimum wage. We're talking less than 0.5% for every 10% increase in minimum wage. So while costs will rise slightly, when compared with the increase in wages it is not a significant amount.

https://research.upjohn.org/up_workingpapers/260/

[*Nately120*]

(01-21-2021, 07:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Not trying to bash you on this, but I find the irony in your post rather humorous. The research does not show that there are significant price increases with adjustments to the minimum wage. We're talking less than 0.5% for every 10% increase in minimum wage. So while costs will rise slightly, when compared with the increase in wages it is not a significant amount.

https://research.upjohn.org/up_workingpapers/260/

I promise I'll read this, but I just wanted to point out that I read Up John Org to the tune of Uptown Girl when I saw that link.  I've been slacking with my contributions as of late, I've been too buried in those Qanon complaints in that redit thread you posted.

[BFritz21]

(01-21-2021, 05:22 PM)Nately120 Wrote: If you have a small business that is ruined by this then you should only blame yourself for not working hard enough to be a big business. 

Seriously?  You don't realize how small businesses work or stay afloat?

This has to be a sarcastic, post, right?

For one thing, they can't order items in as big of a bulk as big chains, meaning that they cost more for the small businesses.

A lot of small businesses are in small towns, meaning that there is no opportunity to be a big business. 

Small businesses often offer better quality because they're able to pay more attention to detail, which is why they're popular, and that can't be done on a massive scale.  

A lot of small businesses are seasonal, like lawn care or landscaping, so having to pay higher wages in the offseason when not much money is coming in would mean layoffs or bankruptcy.

[*Nately120*]

(01-21-2021, 08:51 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Seriously?  You don't realize how small businesses work or stay afloat?

This has to be a sarcastic, post, right?

For one thing, they can't order items in as big of a bulk as big chains, meaning that they cost more for the small businesses.

A lot of small businesses are in small towns, meaning that there is no opportunity to be a big business. 

Small businesses often offer better quality because they're able to pay more attention to detail, which is why they're popular, and that can't be done on a massive scale.  

A lot of small businesses are seasonal, like lawn care or landscaping, so having to pay higher wages in the offseason when not much money is coming in would mean layoffs or bankruptcy.

So if we give the big businesses more tax cuts then more revenue will trickle down and end up with the small businesses?

[BFritz21]

(01-21-2021, 09:36 PM)Nately120 Wrote: So if we give the big businesses more tax cuts then more revenue will trickle down and end up with the small businesses?

Not what I said.

How was that relevant or addressing any point that I made?

[Benton]

(01-21-2021, 08:51 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Seriously?  You don't realize how small businesses work or stay afloat?

This has to be a sarcastic, post, right?

For one thing, they can't order items in as big of a bulk as big chains, meaning that they cost more for the small businesses.

A lot of small businesses are in small towns, meaning that there is no opportunity to be a big business. 

Small businesses often offer better quality because they're able to pay more attention to detail, which is why they're popular, and that can't be done on a massive scale.  

A lot of small businesses are seasonal, like lawn care or landscaping, so having to pay higher wages in the offseason when not much money is coming in would mean layoffs or bankruptcy.

Agreed.

There's another aspect here though. I'll preface this by saying I recently shut down my small business. Not because of labor costs but because of an economy where people aren't spending money.

$15 an hour minimum would've been a blessing to me. Why? More people would presumably have more money to spend.

[Stewy]

(01-21-2021, 07:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Not trying to bash you on this, but I find the irony in your post rather humorous. The research does not show that there are significant price increases with adjustments to the minimum wage. We're talking less than 0.5% for every 10% increase in minimum wage. So while costs will rise slightly, when compared with the increase in wages it is not a significant amount.

https://research.upjohn.org/up_workingpapers/260/

Ok let's be fair here.  As a scientist one publication does not usually become the gold standard of fact.  The authors themselves state that they are adding to overall story and that the variations they investigated are dependent upon how wage hikes are implemented.  Which essentially is what I was saying, that HOW you implement it matters to the overall effect.  A blanket increase will have much more negative effects than one adjusted for inflation or socio-economic conditions.

This is one piece of research adding to the story....a story that the authors themselves quoted on the first few pages.  They did not claim to replace the previous conceptions but add to them with more precise and recent data.  My question for you would be, since you quoted it, thus I assume you know the ins and outs, has this research become the gold standard?  Have all the previous authors basically said "Yep, the 2016 work is right and everything older is obsolete?"

Not to offend, but as a scientist, I find the quoting of one article to prove a point to be a decent argument, but not definitive.  Find me 5-10 articles sighting (and agreeing) the 2016 research and I'll be right there with you.  Otherwise it's one article in a sea of articles that has a different viewpoint.

And no I did not read all 55 pages....I don't have enough caffeine for that.  What was this a Master Thesis?

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-18-2021, 01:13 PM)Benton Wrote: I've said before, I think the federal minimum wage needs to be low, but at the same time, I think wages are dependant on area. $15 an hour where I live is pretty decent because of the low cost of living. $15 an hour in nashville won't get you an apartment, utilities and food.i know several folks who make the 1-2 hours commute to nashville because wages are higher, but live here because the cost of living is much lower.

Yeah, this is more or less where I am at. 

Maybe due to a combination of living in a semi-rural low cost of living area, and the fact that Ohio (the 14th lowest cost-of-living state in the country) has a minimum wage of $8.80/hr, boosting the federal minimum never seemed to be a high priority. It was $6.85 in 2007, and it's been rising $0.10-$0.15 every year or two since. (It actually just went up to $8.80 on Jan 1st, and it was $8.70 the year before and $8.55 the year before that.)

I think people in states with low minimums need to just get their local/state government in gear if they have a problem with it, rather than forcing their beliefs upon the entire country.

I have no problem if a city/county/state votes to raise their minimum, I just don't want it to be decided FOR everyone.

I think the reason why this is a political left v right issue is because if you look at just the contiguous US, the top 14 CoL States are all Dem States. So they just need to either find a way to lower their State's CoL, or just raise their State's Minimum.

[Belsnickel]

(01-21-2021, 11:07 PM)Stewy Wrote: Ok let's be fair here.  As a scientist one publication does not usually become the gold standard of fact.  The authors themselves state that they are adding to overall story and that the variations they investigated are dependent upon how wage hikes are implemented.  Which essentially is what I was saying, that HOW you implement it matters to the overall effect.  A blanket increase will have much more negative effects than one adjusted for inflation or socio-economic conditions.

This is one piece of research adding to the story....a story that the authors themselves quoted on the first few pages.  They did not claim to replace the previous conceptions but add to them with more precise and recent data.  My question for you would be, since you quoted it, thus I assume you know the ins and outs, has this research become the gold standard?  Have all the previous authors basically said "Yep, the 2016 work is right and everything older is obsolete?"

Not to offend, but as a scientist, I find the quoting of one article to prove a point to be a decent argument, but not definitive.  Find me 5-10 articles sighting (and agreeing) the 2016 research and I'll be right there with you.  Otherwise it's one article in a sea of articles that has a different viewpoint.

And no I did not read all 55 pages....I don't have enough caffeine for that.  What was this a Master Thesis?

They did a little bit of a meta analysis on the topic, but there hasn't been much since that 2016 study because this isn't a very well research topic to begin with. Most studies on the effects of minimum wage increases focuses on the theory they lower employment levels (also not really supported by the research, btw). I did find a 2004 meta-analysis that had some very similar results from the Institute for the Study of Labor. 

From what I've read on the topic, which is again very limited, the study of the effects shows that the theorized economic effect on prices is not as large as economists tend to predict. These papers both come from highly regarded research centers on labor economics, focus on the United States, and share similar results. Given the dearth of research on this topic, this represents what 5-10 papers sharing similar results in a more focused upon topic would mean. 

Look, I'm a social scientist, so I get what you're saying in your skepticism, but I haven't seen a paper out there proving the theory that prices rise in a major way from minimum wage increases. The empirical evidence on this topic isn't exhausting, but what evidence there is points to a small price effect from increasing minimum wage, especially in the US.

Also, if we looked at a minimum wage adjusted for inflation, which I think is a perfectly reasonable thing to do, we would be looking at a minimum wage even higher than $15 right now if we based it on the history of the minimum wage.

[NATI BENGALS]

I would think prices would go up due to the simple supply and demand curve. I don’t see why the supply would change, but more people with more money would increase the demand which results in a higher price. At least with my simple Econ 101 concept

[GMDino]

(01-22-2021, 09:22 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I would think prices would go up due to the simple supply and demand curve. I don’t see why the supply would change, but more people with more money would increase the demand which results in a higher price. At least with my simple Econ 101 concept

Yeah I'm not major student of it but I don't remember prices holding steady for the last ten years plus while PA's minimum wage remained the same.  Seems prices go up, profits increase and people still get paid the same wages as the 1990's.

[Belsnickel]

(01-22-2021, 09:22 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I would think prices would go up due to the simple supply and demand curve. I don’t see why the supply would change, but more people with more money would increase the demand which results in a higher price. At least with my simple Econ 101 concept

Most of what is learned in entry level econ are hypotheses. People came up with it, usually within the last 100-150 years, and it's taught as the gospel truth. Yet if you get 100 economists in a room to make predictions about an economic situation you will come out with at least 90 different answers. Sometimes, when we get a chance to study empirical data, it shows that the hypotheses doesn't hold much water. But that's how science works. Hypothesis are made, tested, and disproven. That's the scientific method at work. The problem is that it often takes a long time for what is taught in the classroom to really catch up with the research.

[*Nately120*]

(01-21-2021, 10:25 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Not what I said.

How was that relevant or addressing any point that I made?

You're just trashing capitalism because you've been programmed to think it is unfair. 

[BFritz21]

(01-22-2021, 11:08 AM)Nately120 Wrote: You're just trashing capitalism because you've been programmed to think it is unfair. 

You've literally made the stupidest assumptions in more than one of my threads the past few days.

I love capitalism and I'm all for it and I don't think you understand what capitalism is because everything in capitalism is controlled by private owners for profit and they decided what the value of a worker's labor, but you're suggesting the government control it.

I'm not against minimum wage, but to force employers to pay a person that much for unskilled labor is ridiculous and will fail.

[Stewy]

(01-22-2021, 10:13 AM)GMDino Wrote: Yeah I'm not major student of it but I don't remember prices holding steady for the last ten years plus while PA's minimum wage remained the same.  Seems prices go up, profits increase and people still get paid the same wages as the 1990's.

Cost of base product (like all of what goes in a Big Mac) for all services have increased even if wages have not, thus prices increase naturally as the cost of doing business goes up.

Just to repeat myself, I am not against a wage increases, just not for a blanket increase.  I want some thought put into it.

[*Nately120*]

(01-22-2021, 05:12 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: You've literally made the stupidest assumptions in more than one of my threads the past few days.

I'll admit that I've stopped trying to actually discuss things with you in a serious manner.  You don't get this upset when I take an intentionally stupid right-wing stance on things.

At any rate, you're an ultra-mark for the politicians who enabled the huge businesses to outlast and/or outright crush small businesses...why give a damn now?  Since the days of Reagan we've been marching towards eliminating the middle class...stuff like this and covid just speeds it along.  We're on rails, here.

Biden is talking about small business now...I bet you give a damn.

[BFritz21]

(01-22-2021, 05:17 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'll admit that I've stopped trying to actually discuss things with you in a serious manner.  You don't get this upset when I take an intentionally stupid right-wing stance on things.

At any rate, you're an ultra-mark for the politicians who enabled the huge businesses to outlast and/or outright crush small businesses...why give a damn now?  Since the days of Reagan we've been marching towards eliminating the middle class...stuff like this and covid just speeds it along.  We're on rails, here.

Biden is talking about small business now...I bet you give a damn.

You're implying that I supported Republicans killing small businesses but you're arguing for a measure that would hurt small businesses?  

Seriously, you should just quit because you keep flip-flopping and making personal attacks, which is just killing whatever point you were trying to make, which I'm not even sure what that is at this point.

[*Nately120*]

(01-22-2021, 05:28 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: You're implying that I supported Republicans killing small businesses but you're arguing for a measure that would hurt small businesses?  

I don't recall arguing for a $15 minimum wage.  I'm arguing that you are finding one aspect where democrats are going to hurt small businesses after 40 years of neo-con BS that you seem to eat like apple pie has put small businesses on the ropes.

(01-22-2021, 05:28 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Seriously, you should just quit because you keep flip-flopping and making personal attacks, which is just killing whatever point you were trying to make, which I'm not even sure what that is at this point.

Can you go one post without painting yourself as some sort of victim?  Geez.