Biden Wants 15/Hour Min Wage

[GMDino]

(01-19-2021, 02:26 PM)michaelsean Wrote: You assume they can sell and make an endless amount of Big Macs with no increase in staff.

I mean there is probably an upper limit but even before they added a lot of the automation they have today I worked at McDonalds when we would have one counter girl, one person in drive thru and me cooking., plus a manager.  Often than was the closing crew for the last 2-3 hours.  If a bus showed up you'd be surprised how many burgers you can make.

Paying me $5 an hour to make one Big Mac or thirty depending on the night.

Edit to add we were also cleaning for the night and prepping for the morning, open shift besides all the food prep.

[Belsnickel]

(01-19-2021, 02:40 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I didn’t mean your criticism of Hobby Lobby when I was talking about chastising companies who employ people. That was meant toward the wage argument. Me quoting the wrong post might be confusing.

Okay. Well, let's address that more in general, then. If companies paying their employees wages that they cannot sustain themselves on were purely an issue that stayed within the confines of that business then I could agree with you. However, employers that pay these sub-par wages contribute to government concerns of welfare. If an employee must rely on government assistance (welfare) and what not, even while employed in a full-time capacity, then the government is essentially subsidizing that business. The government is paying for housing assistance, healthcare, food, etc., that should be able to be afforded by the worker through their pay.

So this is why criticism of companies paying low wages by people who don't employ anyone is a completely valid thing. The actions of those companies has an impact on our social programs in this country and therefore the way in which our government spends money. If the company existed in a vacuum, sure, whatever, but that just isn't the case.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-19-2021, 02:47 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Okay. Well, let's address that more in general, then. If companies paying their employees wages that they cannot sustain themselves on were purely an issue that stayed within the confines of that business then I could agree with you. However, employers that pay these sub-par wages contribute to government concerns of welfare. If an employee must rely on government assistance (welfare) and what not, even while employed in a full-time capacity, then the government is essentially subsidizing that business. The government is paying for housing assistance, healthcare, food, etc., that should be able to be afforded by the worker through their pay.

So this is why criticism of companies paying low wages by people who don't employ anyone is a completely valid thing. The actions of those companies has an impact on our social programs in this country and therefore the way in which our government spends money. If the company existed in a vacuum, sure, whatever, but that just isn't the case.

But that’s something the government decides to do. That’s not on the business. I don’t disagree with the government doing it, but that’s their decision. I know it’s easy for me to talk on a theoretical level about real life circumstances and I try to keep that in mind, and I know there are people who have list decently paying jobs and are forced to work for $12 an hour, but I just can’t take the step of the government setting wages. I’m much happier instead paying for training and for daycare for a while and the myriad other programs that can help people make a good wage.

[CJD]

(01-19-2021, 02:26 PM)michaelsean Wrote: You assume they can sell and make an endless amount of Big Macs with no increase in staff.

What would you say is the critical mass for Big Macs sold per hour by a 6 person staff?

[*michaelsean*]

(01-19-2021, 02:44 PM)GMDino Wrote: I mean there is probably an upper limit but even before they added a lot of the automation they have today I worked at McDonalds when we would have one counter girl, one person in drive thru and me cooking., plus a manager.  Often than was the closing crew for the last 2-3 hours.  If a bus showed up you'd be surprised how many burgers you can make.

Paying me $5 an hour to make one Big Mac or thirty depending on the night.

So what you’re saying is unless a bus showed up, you were pretty much overpaid.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-19-2021, 03:01 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: What would you say is the critical mass for Big Macs sold per hour by a 6 person staff?

I don’t know but you went from 10 to 40. Somewhere you have to add cashiers and cooks. Dino apparently averaged one an hour unless a bus showed up in the middle of the night.

[GMDino]

(01-19-2021, 03:02 PM)michaelsean Wrote: So what you’re saying is unless a bus showed up, you were pretty much overpaid.

Ha! 

I was editing as you responded!

Quote:Edit to add we were also cleaning for the night and prepping for the morning, open shift besides all the food prep.

Like a lot of those places it depended on the day and the time.  They'd send people home if we were slow and then we'd get swamped.  So sometimes we got paid to wipe down counters but most of the time we were busting it to keep up.  

My son works fast food now as he's going through college.  They got a $2 an hour bump for hazard pay for a month or two.

But from what I've garnered corporate is a lot stricter with the "hours worked" vs profit then they were in the mid to late 80's.  One thing that hasn't changed is they do seem to know who the reliable, hard workers are and they get to stay even when its slow.  He's one of those kids like I was.  Then you get screwed when it gets swamped!  

[CJD]

(01-19-2021, 03:04 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I don’t know but you went from 10 to 40.  Somewhere you have to add cashiers and cooks. Dino apparently averaged one an hour unless a bus showed up in the middle of the night.

I mean, 40 per hour would be less than 1 per minute. I think that's a pretty reasonable amount for a staff of two cashiers, two cooks and two runners. But I just have my experience to guide me, so I don't know where that line sits where it becomes unreasonable.

Either way, my math is just estimates based on common sense. The article I linked did a more detailed analysis than just a hypothetical. 

My point wasn't really to nail down the actual cost increase, but more so to dispel the idea that if you double the cost of the labor, you double the cost of the burger. The prices just don't scale in that linear of a fashion.

[Belsnickel]

(01-19-2021, 03:01 PM)michaelsean Wrote: But that’s something the government decides to do. That’s not on the business. I don’t disagree with the government doing it, but that’s their decision. I know it’s easy for me to talk on a theoretical level about real life circumstances and I try to keep that in mind, and I know there are people who have list decently paying jobs and are forced to work for $12 an hour, but I just can’t take the step of the government setting wages. I’m much happier instead paying for training and for daycare for a while and the myriad other programs that can help people make a good wage.

Truly, I'd prefer that route, as well. Our social safety net is far from adequate and what is there is often complicated to gain access to. I'd much rather have my tax money going to adequate health insurance, help for new parents, job training and education, etc. Unfortunately, though, these things have been demonized by certain individuals in government (I'm not just picking on Republicans, here, Bill Clinton holds responsibility, too). Plus, the minimum wage has fallen well behind inflation, which has its own problems. It's because of all of this that raising the minimum wage at the federal level is the most viable policy option at this point. Of course, it's only a short-term fix and we need to bolster our social safety nets for the long-term, as well.

Maybe we'll get there some day.

[Au165]

(01-19-2021, 03:21 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Truly, I'd prefer that route, as well. Our social safety net is far from adequate and what is there is often complicated to gain access to. I'd much rather have my tax money going to adequate health insurance, help for new parents, job training and education, etc. Unfortunately, though, these things have been demonized by certain individuals in government (I'm not just picking on Republicans, here, Bill Clinton holds responsibility, too). Plus, the minimum wage has fallen well behind inflation, which has its own problems. It's because of all of this that raising the minimum wage at the federal level is the most viable policy option at this point. Of course, it's only a short-term fix and we need to bolster our social safety nets for the long-term, as well.

Maybe we'll get there some day.

I still think a regionalized federal minimum would make everyone a lot happier than the blanket $15. It would require more work to establish but does cover some of the concerns of the agriculture and food processing industry which tends to be situated in lower COL areas than say a fast-food worker in a metropolitan area. We already know the federal government has per diem guides for reimbursement when working government contracts based on the area, that has been established off of some sort of localized cost structure. Use something similar and essentially set it up that you want $15 worth of purchasing power. So maybe $12 an hour gets it done in Cincinnati but in San Francisco, it's $24.

[*michaelsean*]

(01-19-2021, 03:08 PM)GMDino Wrote: Ha! 

I was editing as you responded!




Like a lot of those places it depended on the day and the time.  They'd send people home if we were slow and then we'd get swamped.  So sometimes we got paid to wipe down counters but most of the time we were busting it to keep up.  

My son works fast food now as he's going through college.  They got a $2 an hour bump for hazard pay for a month or two.

But from what I've garnered corporate is a lot stricter with the "hours worked" vs profit then they were in the mid to late 80's.  One thing that hasn't changed is they do seem to know who the reliable, hard workers are and they get to stay even when its slow.  He's one of those kids like I was.  Then you get screwed when it gets swamped!  

One thing I learned back in the day and I imagine it’s still true today, especially at entry level positions, if you show up every day and are on time, you jump to the head of the class. My entire life of chauffeuring my kids around to practice to games and everything else, we were always early and they never missed. I can’t stand being late and I hope I instilled some of that in them.

[Au165]

(01-19-2021, 03:41 PM)michaelsean Wrote: One thing I learned back in the day and I imagine it’s still true today, especially at entry level positions, if you show up every day and are on time, you jump to the head of the class. My entire life of chauffeuring my kids around to practice to games and everything else, we were always early and they never missed. I can’t stand being late and I hope I instilled some of that in them.

As a former coach, parents who brought their kids late to practice were one of the worst things because you literally are telling your kids it's acceptable. I was fortunate I had an AD who backed me up as I would punish the kids for being late in the hopes their parents would maybe learn some responsibility...which was sad I even had to do. 

[*michaelsean*]

(01-19-2021, 03:45 PM)Au165 Wrote: As a former coach, parents who brought their kids late to practice were one of the worst things because you literally are telling your kids it's acceptable. I was fortunate I had an AD who backed me up as I would punish the kids for being late in the hopes their parents would maybe learn some responsibility...which was sad I even had to do. 

Oh I guarantee they didn’t learn. “Why isn’t my boy/girl playing?” And it really isn’t the kid’s fault. (A lot of the time). I used to have to walk to football practice on occasion , and if you were late you had to run around the far backstop. Well I was behind one time so I ran all the way to practice in full gear. Then I did the math.

[Au165]

(01-19-2021, 03:49 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Oh I guarantee they didn’t learn. “Why isn’t my boy/girl playing?”  And it really isn’t the kid’s fault. I used to have to walk to football practice on occasion , and if you were late you had to run around the far backstop. Well I was behind one time so I ran all the way to practice in full gear. Then I did the math.

Yea, I never held them out of events just made them condition extra after. The added benefit of that was I made the parents have to sit around waiting longer while they did the conditioning, so I essentially showed them the value of being on time just on the flip side. 

[GMDino]

(01-19-2021, 03:11 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I mean, 40 per hour would be less than 1 per minute. I think that's a pretty reasonable amount for a staff of two cashiers, two cooks and two runners. But I just have my experience to guide me, so I don't know where that line sits where it becomes unreasonable.

Either way, my math is just estimates based on common sense. The article I linked did a more detailed analysis than just a hypothetical. 

My point wasn't really to nail down the actual cost increase, but more so to dispel the idea that if you double the cost of the labor, you double the cost of the burger. The prices just don't scale in that linear of a fashion.

Just to add, because I never thought my four years as a burger flipper would be something I could talk about 30+ years later, we didn't make one at a time either.  I assume they don't now.

You made 8 to 10 patties at a time so 8-10 burgers or 4-5 Macs.  Same with quarter pounders.

Depending on how much of a hurry it took about 4-5 minutes to cook and toast the buns.

There is was all about efficiency and getting product out.  That's how they made they money obviously.

[GMDino]

(01-19-2021, 03:41 PM)michaelsean Wrote: One thing I learned back in the day and I imagine it’s still true today, especially at entry level positions, if you show up every day and are on time, you jump to the head of the class. My entire life of chauffeuring my kids around to practice to games and everything else, we were always early and they never missed. I can’t stand being late and I hope I instilled some of that in them.

Yep and then my son "complains" that they call him in, want him to work over, etc.  I try to explain that means he's a good worker but also don't be taken advantage of.

[CJD]

(01-19-2021, 04:27 PM)GMDino Wrote: Just to add, because I never thought my four years as a burger flipper would be something I could talk about 30+ years later, we didn't make one at a time either.  I assume they don't now.

You made 8 to 10 patties at a time so 8-10 burgers or 4-5 Macs.  Same with quarter pounders.

Depending on how much of a hurry it took about 4-5 minutes to cook and toast the buns.

There is was all about efficiency and getting product out.  That's how they made they money obviously.

Yea, of course. I'm just talking averages. There will be highs and lows in terms of sales throughout the day. When I worked in fast food 15 years ago, we were still obviously making them in batches :).

[CJD]

(01-19-2021, 12:55 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Nice debate.  Totally convinced me.  No points or anything but rather just "it won't happen" because you said so.

Bravo.

Why'd you respond to the only person who didn't make an argument in favor of the minimum wage increase in this thread, but did not respond to anyone that did?

[BFritz21]

(01-21-2021, 04:58 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Why'd you respond to the only person who didn't make an argument in favor of the minimum wage increase in this thread, but did not respond to anyone that did?

Because it has been a solid discussion and didn't really need anything added to it as most of (or all) of my points have been covered by others.

[CJD]

(01-21-2021, 05:08 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Because it has been a solid discussion and didn't really need anything added to it as most of (or all) of my points have been covered by others.

Okay, fair enough. Has any argument swayed your belief in any way? Or do you still feel this is just a handout at the expense of small businesses?