COVID-19 Stimulus

[SunsetBengal]

(03-27-2020, 09:31 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Oh, I don't blame you. We will pay down debts, ourselves. It's just always one of those funny things to me because the government does this in the hopes that people will just spend the money. Paying down debts with the money undermines their efforts because it doesn't boost the economy as the stimulus intends.

Actually, it will.  As I have more money to spend on a regular basis, I'm less confined by my payments to spend some of that money in other places.

[Belsnickel]

(03-27-2020, 09:42 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Actually, it will.  As I have more money to spend on a regular basis, I'm less confined by my payments to spend some of that money in other places.

What you're talking about, though, is a longer term incremental increase in economic activity.

Think about the economy as a body and your spending is an IV line. What you're describing opens up the line just the tiniest bit, increasing the flow slightly so that over time there is more saline going through. However, the intention of a stimulus like this is to have people open that line up wide open and shove some 1:10,000 epinephrine in that bad boy. They are looking to jolt the economy at the moment, not looking for long term gains.

[CJD]

The Good:

I think the unemployment benefits are really good. The 600 dollars per week on top of the state unemployment benefits is also really good, despite some GOP senators apparently objecting to it.

I also think protecting gig workers was a really good idea.

Protecting small businesses is also a slam dunk.

The money for hospitals and the healthcare system in general is much needed and will help a lot.

Removing the bit about the poorest people getting less stimulus money was also a wise move.

The Meh:

I could take or leave the actual stimulus though. $1,200 dollars per person isn't all that significant...I'm sure it will help, but I am not sure why it wasn't initially passed as a monthly stimulus, rather than a one time payment.
I also think the bounds that they put on it are unnecessarily arbitrary. Like...$99,000 sounds like a ton of money to a lot of people. But for people living in larger cities, that's basically a normal living wage. My sister in law, for example, lives in LA where rent can easily read 2 to 3 thousand dollars per month, but makes more than $99,000, so she won't get anything. Between her student debt, her rent and car payment, she is basically living paycheck to paycheck yet won't see a dime from this stimulus, for some reason.
$99,000 doesn't really go as far in those cities (SF, LA, NYC) as it does in smaller cities.

The Ugly:

Bailing out massive corporations again when they just got a trillion dollar tax cut 2 years ago is setting a super dangerous precedent. These companies are quickly learning (if they haven't learned it already) that they can be as reckless as they want with their money (whether that be by giving massive bonuses to their CEOs or if it's using federal money to buy back their stocks to enrich their investors) and, if tragedy hits, they can just cry to the government and they'll be given the money to be okay.

And this money is being given to them with basically no conditions. Regular people don't get anything if they make more than $99,000, but corporations can take money with no accountability at all as to what they do with it. Boeing's CEO says that if there were conditions on the money, they would "look at all the other options and we've got plenty of them."

"Too big to fail" is a scourge on this country and needs to die.

Overall, I'm optimistic about the majority of the bill, but the last part is gross. But the Democrats knew they needed to give the Republicans what they wanted (the corporate socialism) in order to get what they wanted (protecting unemployed workers).

[SunsetBengal]

I keep seeing and hearing people on both sides of the political aisle talking about how bad it is to be bailing out corporations. Part of me agrees with that logic, but another part of me is stirred to ask the question "What in the hell are you talking about?".

Like it or not, corporations are the very reason that you enjoy life in the fashion that you currently do. Corporations employ the majority of Americans, provide most of the goods and services that everyone finds essential to current life. Are they in it to make a profit? Hell yes they are. Have you benefited from their very existence? You bet your Iphone loving ass you did.

So, let's say we allow the corporations to fail. What then? Are you prepared to take on farming, making your own goods and tools, devising your own communication. energy and travel systems as a way of life? (Don't kid yourself, the vast majority would be lost without modern life in place)

Face it, the corporations are important. They need our help, as we all depend upon them. Not just for the jobs that they provide, but for the very services and life that we have all become accustomed to. So, unless you want to go back to digging rows for crops, and beating molten metal all day to forge tools, I'd say you should get behind the bailout of the corporations. (as ugly as it seems, just turn your head and swallow hard)

[CKwi88]

(03-27-2020, 10:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I keep seeing and hearing people on both sides of the political aisle talking about how bad it is to be bailing out corporations.  Part of me agrees with that logic, but another part of me is stirred to ask the question "What in the hell are you talking about?".

Like it or not, corporations are the very reason that you enjoy life in the fashion that you currently do.  Corporations employ the majority of Americans, provide most of the goods and services that everyone finds essential to current life.  Are they in it to make a profit?  Hell yes they are.  Have you benefited from their very existence?  You bet your Iphone loving ass you did.

So, let's say we allow the corporations to fail.  What then?  Are you prepared to take on farming, making your own goods and tools, devising your own communication. energy and travel systems as a way of life? (Don't kid yourself, the vast majority would be lost without modern life in place)

Face it, the corporations are important.  They need our help, as we all depend upon them.  Not just for the jobs that they provide, but for the very services and life that we have all become accustomed to.  So, unless you want to go back to digging rows for crops, and beating molten metal all day to forge tools, I'd say you should get behind the bailout of the corporations.  (as ugly as it seems, just turn your head and swallow hard)

So in your mind if we let Ford fail, nobody is ever going to make cars again? 

I think the point is to stop bailing out irresponsible corporations so newer, more responsible ones fill the void. 

[SunsetBengal]

(03-27-2020, 11:12 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: So in your mind if we let Ford fail, nobody is ever going to make cars again? 

I think the point is to stop bailing out irresponsible corporations so newer, more responsible ones fill the void. 

So, who's "on the verge and ready to take over"?  Who's going to supply your food, build your homes, make your clothes, provide your communications, provide your travels, accommodate you on your stay, etc., etc...?

[CKwi88]

(03-27-2020, 11:26 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So, who's "on the verge and ready to take over"?  Who's going to supply your food, build your homes, make your clothes, provide your communications, provide your travels, accommodate you on your stay, etc., etc...?

A competitor, new investors, new businesses. 

I think you're confusing the idea of "corporations" with "industry". 

[SunsetBengal]

(03-27-2020, 11:41 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: A competitor, new investors, new businesses. 

I think you're confusing the idea of "corporations" with "industry". 

Lol, there's no way that the "next in lines" are capable or ready to meet the demand of the American public. (keep on kidding yourself)

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-27-2020, 10:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I keep seeing and hearing people on both sides of the political aisle talking about how bad it is to be bailing out corporations. Part of me agrees with that logic, but another part of me is stirred to ask the question "What in the hell are you talking about?".

Like it or not, corporations are the very reason that you enjoy life in the fashion that you currently do. Corporations employ the majority of Americans, provide most of the goods and services that everyone finds essential to current life. Are they in it to make a profit? Hell yes they are. Have you benefited from their very existence? You bet your Iphone loving ass you did.

So, let's say we allow the corporations to fail. What then? Are you prepared to take on farming, making your own goods and tools, devising your own communication. energy and travel systems as a way of life? (Don't kid yourself, the vast majority would be lost without modern life in place)

Face it, the corporations are important. They need our help, as we all depend upon them. Not just for the jobs that they provide, but for the very services and life that we have all become accustomed to. So, unless you want to go back to digging rows for crops, and beating molten metal all day to forge tools, I'd say you should get behind the bailout of the corporations. (as ugly as it seems, just turn your head and swallow hard)

Pretty strange to hear coming from a guy who normally bangs the capitalism drum.

Well at least you admit this form of capitalism we have is broken and socialism comes to save the day.

I supported the bail outs last time. I don’t want to see anything American based fold up and go under this time either. But it is getting old.

Maybe we should stop giving tax cuts to the rich and subsidizing massive businesses. And like some portion of this bailout is attempting to do. Focus on making it a bubble up economy instead of repeating this broke ass trickle down shit

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-27-2020, 11:26 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So, who's "on the verge and ready to take over"?  Who's going to supply your food, build your homes, make your clothes, provide your communications, provide your travels, accommodate you on your stay, etc., etc...?

I remember this argument in Jungle Noise, ‘cept it was Fred asking who was going to replace Bob Bratkowski.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-27-2020, 10:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I keep seeing and hearing people on both sides of the political aisle talking about how bad it is to be bailing out corporations. Part of me agrees with that logic, but another part of me is stirred to ask the question "What in the hell are you talking about?".

Like it or not, corporations are the very reason that you enjoy life in the fashion that you currently do. Corporations employ the majority of Americans, provide most of the goods and services that everyone finds essential to current life. Are they in it to make a profit? Hell yes they are. Have you benefited from their very existence? You bet your Iphone loving ass you did.

So, let's say we allow the corporations to fail. What then? Are you prepared to take on farming, making your own goods and tools, devising your own communication. energy and travel systems as a way of life? (Don't kid yourself, the vast majority would be lost without modern life in place)

Face it, the corporations are important. They need our help, as we all depend upon them. Not just for the jobs that they provide, but for the very services and life that we have all become accustomed to. So, unless you want to go back to digging rows for crops, and beating molten metal all day to forge tools, I'd say you should get behind the bailout of the corporations. (as ugly as it seems, just turn your head and swallow hard)

Together you and I can making the whaling industry great again.

Don’t you mean Chinaphone instead of iPhone? ‘Cause it came from China.

[Belsnickel]

(03-27-2020, 10:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I keep seeing and hearing people on both sides of the political aisle talking about how bad it is to be bailing out corporations. Part of me agrees with that logic, but another part of me is stirred to ask the question "What in the hell are you talking about?".

Like it or not, corporations are the very reason that you enjoy life in the fashion that you currently do. Corporations employ the majority of Americans, provide most of the goods and services that everyone finds essential to current life. Are they in it to make a profit? Hell yes they are. Have you benefited from their very existence? You bet your Iphone loving ass you did.

So, let's say we allow the corporations to fail. What then? Are you prepared to take on farming, making your own goods and tools, devising your own communication. energy and travel systems as a way of life? (Don't kid yourself, the vast majority would be lost without modern life in place)

Face it, the corporations are important. They need our help, as we all depend upon them. Not just for the jobs that they provide, but for the very services and life that we have all become accustomed to. So, unless you want to go back to digging rows for crops, and beating molten metal all day to forge tools, I'd say you should get behind the bailout of the corporations. (as ugly as it seems, just turn your head and swallow hard)

So here are some of the critiques of what you are saying:

1. Those who are in power all too often harp on how important it is for individual citizens to take responsibility, set aside savings for a rainy day, not rely on the government teat to support them in times of need. However, they don't discuss that same logic when it comes to corporations. Instead, as soon as there is some economic instability that threatens the economic situation there is a cash infusion into Wall Street and/or corporate America while the small businesses and citizens see far less directly. These leads into critique number two.

2. The whole premise of the cash infusion to corporations is based on supply-side economics, or what people often term as Reaganomics or trickle-down theory. The idea being that if there is a cash infusion at the top it will make its way to the bottom. The fault in this thinking, though, is that we haven't seen that born out in the 40+ years we've been trying it. The rich have gotten richer and the poor have remained poor. So the idea in a situation like this to push the cash to corporations is that they use it to continue to pay workers and produce goods and services. But what if they don't? What oversight is in place to see they do with their money what they should do to help the economy? Well, there are now certain stipulations attached to the money at the insistence of the Democrats, but honestly they aren't much at all. If I read correctly, it's only a couple of months that they can't lay off workers. The IG is going to be toothless which means the oversight is a joke.

So while the general language is "bailing out corporations is bad," the more specific message is that we should be putting the money on the demand side of things, the workers, and letting them boost the economy with their spending power. If they have money to spend then they can keep corporations afloat. If they are laid off and facing economic hardships of their own, then the corporations are existing to do what, exactly? With people incapable of purchasing goods and services then what is the function of a corporation other than to just exist?

[*michaelsean*]

If they are bailing them out with loans with restrictions like this time I have much less problem with it, and I despise the airlines. I think I’ve flown once in the last maybe ten years. I do everything I can to not use them. I do want to go to Europe someday so I’ll have to use them one more time.

[GMDino]

Having lived through Reganomics to today I still don't know why anyone other the guys at the top support supply side.  I'll probably be wondering until my dying day.

[grampahol]

I'm gonna use my $1200 stimulus check to start producing wooden wagon wheels. They used to be really cheap ya know.., but then again I'm not very good at felling huge oak trees by hand with an axe anymore. I used to go out in the woods to cut down trees with an axe for the fun of it when I was a kid, but those same trees were getting bulldozed anyway to make room for "the burbs". A lot of what is now Beavercreek, Ohio was once mostly forest and quite a bit still existed before the 70s rolled around.
Skip it..I'll just keep working on my new and exciting time machine.

[grampahol]

(03-28-2020, 09:11 AM)GMDino Wrote: Having lived through Reganomics to today I still don't know why anyone other the guys at the top support supply side.  I'll probably be wondering until my dying day.

It's a huge part of where the so called "just in time supply lines" came from with no need to be able to stockpile anything like ..say...masks.. Yeah..that's worked out marvelously.

[GMDino]

(03-28-2020, 09:25 AM)grampahol Wrote: It's a huge part of where the so called "just in time supply lines" came from with no need to be able to stockpile anything like ..say...masks.. Yeah..that's worked out marvelously.

Oh my word yes.

In my industry (which I didn't get into until 1998) I've seen this on both my customer's end not buying enough stock and then panicking and out suppliers not having the stock we need even though we always buy before we need it.

Minimize employees and their pay/benefits.  Maximize "productivity" and profits.

Leave no room for error.

I would rail about that at our plant in the past.  Managers forcing through product ahead of other items and setting very tough deadlines without them considering vacation days for the shop employees leaving us understaffed temporarily or even the possibility that a machine might malfunction or need maintenance.

It has gotten better as we have changed managers though.

[CJD]

(03-27-2020, 10:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I keep seeing and hearing people on both sides of the political aisle talking about how bad it is to be bailing out corporations.  Part of me agrees with that logic, but another part of me is stirred to ask the question "What in the hell are you talking about?".

Like it or not, corporations are the very reason that you enjoy life in the fashion that you currently do.  Corporations employ the majority of Americans, provide most of the goods and services that everyone finds essential to current life.  Are they in it to make a profit?  Hell yes they are.  Have you benefited from their very existence?  You bet your Iphone loving ass you did.

So, let's say we allow the corporations to fail.  What then?  Are you prepared to take on farming, making your own goods and tools, devising your own communication. energy and travel systems as a way of life? (Don't kid yourself, the vast majority would be lost without modern life in place)

Face it, the corporations are important.  They need our help, as we all depend upon them.  Not just for the jobs that they provide, but for the very services and life that we have all become accustomed to.  So, unless you want to go back to digging rows for crops, and beating molten metal all day to forge tools, I'd say you should get behind the bailout of the corporations.  (as ugly as it seems, just turn your head and swallow hard)

If a corporation were to be allowed to fail, them, their product, their warehouses and their market share wouldn't magically disappear. 

They'd go bankrupt, competitors/ new companies would buy out their assets and expand into the void in the market the incompetent corporations left. 

Essentially, bailing out the corporations doesn't bail out the industry. It bails out the incompetent and corrupt CEOs and operations management that waste money (or steal it) so much that they can't run at a deficit for a month without running to big daddy government for help. 

You can appreciate the product of a corporation without deifying them and you can hold them and their executives accountable while still understanding their importance to the economy. 

[Millhouse]

(03-27-2020, 11:36 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I know neo cons who will accept this and have filed for unemployment. None of them have sold their fancy phones or cancelled their Netflix yet, however.

To be fair season 3 of Ozark just released yesterday on Netflix. Speaking of which..

[Millhouse]

(03-27-2020, 10:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I keep seeing and hearing people on both sides of the political aisle talking about how bad it is to be bailing out corporations.  Part of me agrees with that logic, but another part of me is stirred to ask the question "What in the hell are you talking about?".

Like it or not, corporations are the very reason that you enjoy life in the fashion that you currently do.  Corporations employ the majority of Americans, provide most of the goods and services that everyone finds essential to current life.  Are they in it to make a profit?  Hell yes they are.  Have you benefited from their very existence?  You bet your Iphone loving ass you did.

So, let's say we allow the corporations to fail.  What then?  Are you prepared to take on farming, making your own goods and tools, devising your own communication. energy and travel systems as a way of life? (Don't kid yourself, the vast majority would be lost without modern life in place)

Face it, the corporations are important.  They need our help, as we all depend upon them.  Not just for the jobs that they provide, but for the very services and life that we have all become accustomed to.  So, unless you want to go back to digging rows for crops, and beating molten metal all day to forge tools, I'd say you should get behind the bailout of the corporations.  (as ugly as it seems, just turn your head and swallow hard)

During times of a crisis like what we are seeing today, I dont have a problem in helping corporations stay afloat that are being effected directly by it, as long as their workers are staying afloat as well due to them getting bailed out. Unlike what some here are saying, this is out of their control and aren't going under because of incompetence & greed.

In normal times however, yeah, I am not a fan of corporate bailouts when the company isn't ran well. I wasn't even a fan of the banks bailout back in 08', because the whole housing crash was due to massive fraudulence by the big banks that saw trillions vanish almost overnight. And then they get bailed out without the law coming down on.