COVID-19 Stimulus

[fredtoast]

(03-28-2020, 10:34 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: If a corporation were to be allowed to fail, them, their product, their warehouses and their market share wouldn't magically disappear. 

They'd go bankrupt, competitors/ new companies would buy out their assets and expand into the void in the market the incompetent corporations left. 

(03-28-2020, 10:56 AM)Millhouse Wrote:  I wasn't even a fan of the banks bailout back in 08', because the whole housing crash was due to massive fraudulence by the big banks that saw trillions vanish almost overnight. And then they get bailed out without the law coming down on.

The problem with letting a US corporation fail is that a foreign corporation might replace it.  That is exactly what would have happened with the auto industry in '08.  There was no way any other US auto company could have started up at that time because the lending institutions required to finance a new auto company were on the verge of banruptcy also.  No body had enough money to start a new auto company that could have competed with the Japanese and European auto companies.  It takes much more money to start a new company than to keep an established one running.

I hate corporate bailouts, but some times they are necessary.  What pisses me off is that these corporations demand that they receive the money with no restrictions or new regulations.  In my opinion any corporation that requires a "bailout" should be in some sort of supervised receivership until it is back in the black and new regulations should be promulgated to prevent it happening in the future.

[CJD]

(03-30-2020, 11:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The problem with letting a US corporation fail is that a foreign corporation might replace it.  That is exactly what would have happened with the auto industry in '08.  There was no way any other US auto company could have started up at that time because the lending institutions required to finance a new auto company were on the verge of banruptcy also.  No body had enough money to start a new auto company that could have competed with the Japanese and European auto companies.  It takes much more money to start a new company than to keep an established one running.

I hate corporate bailouts, but some times they are necessary.  What pisses me off is that these corporations demand that they receive the money with no restrictions or new regulations.  In my opinion any corporation that requires a "bailout" should be in some sort of supervised receivership until it is back in the black and new regulations should be promulgated to prevent it happening in the future.

Completely agree with your second paragraph.

As I mentioned in my post, the CEO of Boeing said that if conditions were placed on the money, they'd "look at all the other options and we've got plenty of them."

He even says that Boeing has $15 billion in the bank...

If they have so many other options, including their own bank account, I'd prefer they go to those rather than take government money that could go elsewhere. At the absolute bare minimum, I think every cent should be monitored intensely to make sure it is used to appropriately respond to the impact of the corona virus and its ripple effects (loss of wages for workers, primarily) and I think if you take any money you are banned from stock buybacks for at least a decade.

But even now, Trump used a signing statement to basically say he's ignoring the oversight written into the bill...So now any request the Congress makes, the President can cancel it if he doesn't want them knowing the information they asked for. Which is how he's been treating the Congress his entire presidency. Essentially, he ripped the teeth out of the oversight portion of this bill and he did it so casually you'd be mistaken for thinking something like this is done every day.

With every move he makes, he inches closer and closer to a Monarch rather than President.

[*michaelsean*]

(03-28-2020, 10:34 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: If a corporation were to be allowed to fail, them, their product, their warehouses and their market share wouldn't magically disappear. 

They'd go bankrupt, competitors/ new companies would buy out their assets and expand into the void in the market the incompetent corporations left. 

Essentially, bailing out the corporations doesn't bail out the industry. It bails out the incompetent and corrupt CEOs and operations management that waste money (or steal it) so much that they can't run at a deficit for a month without running to big daddy government for help. 

You can appreciate the product of a corporation without deifying them and you can hold them and their executives accountable while still understanding their importance to the economy. 

It all depends.  If you fail because the government shut you down or a pandemic means you have no customers, that's not really on you.  

[*michaelsean*]

(03-28-2020, 10:47 AM)Millhouse Wrote: To be fair season 3 of Ozark just released yesterday on Netflix. Speaking of which..

Already done with it.  

[Belsnickel]

(03-30-2020, 01:21 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Already done with it.  

First time I heard of the show was in this thread...

[*michaelsean*]

(03-30-2020, 01:35 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: First time I heard of the show was in this thread...

Pretty good especially if you like Jason Bateman which I do.  Although his character isn't all that likable.  

[Dill]

(03-28-2020, 07:18 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: 2. The whole premise of the cash infusion to corporations is based on supply-side economics, or what people often term as Reaganomics or trickle-down theory. The idea being that if there is a cash infusion at the top it will make its way to the bottom. The fault in this thinking, though, is that we haven't seen that born out in the 40+ years we've been trying it. The rich have gotten richer and the poor have remained poor. So the idea in a situation like this to push the cash to corporations is that they use it to continue to pay workers and produce goods and services. But what if they don't? What oversight is in place to see they do with their money what they should do to help the economy? Well, there are now certain stipulations attached to the money at the insistence of the Democrats, but honestly they aren't much at all. If I read correctly, it's only a couple of months that they can't lay off workers. The IG is going to be toothless which means the oversight is a joke.

So while the general language is "bailing out corporations is bad," the more specific message is that we should be putting the money on the demand side of things, the workers, and letting them boost the economy with their spending power. If they have money to spend then they can keep corporations afloat. If they are laid off and facing economic hardships of their own, then the corporations are existing to do what, exactly? With people incapable of purchasing goods and services then what is the function of a corporation other than to just exist?

Many excellent points in this post, especially the bolded. 

We cannot just hand these guys money again with no accountability. I want to see that money going to workers and families--the ones who REALLY make and distribute all those good things like cars and Chinaphones.

To make their profits, corporations depend on their workers and us, the consumer, as well as the government.

I'd like to see all those CEOs and managers make their own cars and farm their own food.

[Belsnickel]

Now, I'm assuming this is some left-wing rag, but the video is pretty much undeniable: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-admit-voting-rights-reform-endanger-republicans

Trump said, on air, "They had things, levels of voting that if you ever agreed to it you’d never have a Republican elected in this country again." Nice to see that he is admitting to voter suppression being good for Republicans.

[CJD]

(03-31-2020, 09:31 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Now, I'm assuming this is some left-wing rag, but the video is pretty much undeniable: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-admit-voting-rights-reform-endanger-republicans

Trump said, on air, "They had things, levels of voting that if you ever agreed to it you’d never have a Republican elected in this country again." Nice to see that he is admitting to voter suppression being good for Republicans.

Trump is the king of saying the quiet part out loud.

Republicans are going to be spending decades recovering from all the shit that Trump admitted during his presidency.

The sad part is that it won't change anything. This country is so entrenched in party values that even if the Republicans are revealed to be the most corrupt party in American history, they'd still get 45 to 49% of the vote every year.

I really hate this 2 party system...

[*michaelsean*]

(03-31-2020, 09:31 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Now, I'm assuming this is some left-wing rag, but the video is pretty much undeniable: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-admit-voting-rights-reform-endanger-republicans

Trump said, on air, "They had things, levels of voting that if you ever agreed to it you’d never have a Republican elected in this country again." Nice to see that he is admitting to voter suppression being good for Republicans.

Or he could mean Democrats cheating.  (Not saying they would be, just his perception. I can't hear the audio so I'm just going off the one line.)

[CKwi88]

(03-31-2020, 09:31 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Now, I'm assuming this is some left-wing rag, but the video is pretty much undeniable: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-admit-voting-rights-reform-endanger-republicans

Trump said, on air, "They had things, levels of voting that if you ever agreed to it you’d never have a Republican elected in this country again." Nice to see that he is admitting to voter suppression being good for Republicans.

Holy shit that is shocking.


He told the truth. 

[CJD]

(03-31-2020, 11:25 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Or he could mean Democrats cheating.  (Not saying they would be, just his perception. I can't hear the audio so I'm just going off the one line.)

Maybe.

But then, to him, poor people having a vote is probably cheating on its own.

[Belsnickel]

(03-31-2020, 11:25 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Or he could mean Democrats cheating.  (Not saying they would be, just his perception. I can't hear the audio so I'm just going off the one line.)

No, that's not what he was referring to. And it isn't exactly a secret that the more people vote the higher likelihood that the Democrat wins. Increased voter turnout almost always favors the Democrats which is why Republicans have generally favored tighter restrictions on voting. This is something we know from documents from Republican strategists and what not. It's not not commonly said so explicitly.

[jj22]

I think it's way too much money and trillions more to come. Everyone need to breathe (in a mask at least), and reassess everything in July. Too much too quick I personally feel like before I read through this thread.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

Shouldn’t the private sector fix this problem rather than intrusive government intervention? The government never does anything right.

Right?

[*michaelsean*]

(04-02-2020, 09:30 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Shouldn’t the private sector fix this problem rather than intrusive government intervention? The government never does anything right.

Right?

No not when it’s the government doing the closing of the businesses causing the loss of jobs. Agree or disagree with their decisions, the government intrusion already happened. That liberals think they have a point with this (You’re not the first) is astounding.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(04-02-2020, 10:47 PM)michaelsean Wrote: No not when it’s the government doing the closing of the businesses causing the loss of jobs. Agree or disagree with their decisions, the government intrusion already happened. That liberals think they have a point with this (You’re not the first) is astounding.

You’re right. Republicans taking away our freedoms. Handed out free money to people who aren’t working. Brad better go buy his gun before Trump takes it away.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-03-2020, 12:44 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You’re right. Republicans taking away our freedoms. Handed out free money to people who aren’t working. Brad better go buy his gun before Trump takes it away.

Well Democrats and Republicans since it was governors and a lot of people are concerned about it. You’re not super great at this trolling thing which I suppose is a good thing.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(04-03-2020, 03:44 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Well Democrats and Republicans since it was governors and a lot of people are concerned about it. You’re not super great at this trolling thing which I suppose is a good thing.

LOL

[GMDino]

Breech and Michael bring up something I talked about on Facebook yesterday:  The conspiracy theorists are out in force right now.

This time it seems to be leaning right with the "conservatives" and "libertarians" claiming this is a hoax to take away their rights, guns, etc.

Even had that lunatic try and fly a train into a boat. 

I see memes saying not to take the check if Trump isn't your president, and not to take it if you're against socialism.

But they'll all take their money from the government.