Chase Young or Joe Burrow ?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-28-2019, 10:43 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Absolutely. What does every championship team have? A shutdown defense. The Bengals have done less than nothing to address that side of the ball since Mike Zimmer left.

Hmm...what else do the majority of championship football teams have in common...

And how is drafting a CB (WJ3) in the 1st round doing “less than nothing?”

What about Bates in the 2nd? Or Hubbard in the 3rd?

If you want Young, fine, but you don’t need to make things up.

[J24]

(11-28-2019, 03:18 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You’re leaving out a couple guys when talking about the best QB’s in the league right now, mainly Mahomes and Watson (but also Rodgers). All 1st rounders. Could we find a Wilson or Brady in the later rounds? It’s obviously possible, but that doesn’t mean it’s likely. Especially given our minuscule scouting department. I’d rather go with the more known prospect that’s at the top of everyone’s boards.

And neither one of those were drafted in the top 5 either. So even if were in QB purgatory we can always trade up for a QB.

(11-28-2019, 05:13 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: Do you want to be 6 or so starters away with a potential grand slam franchise QB, or do you want to be 5 or so starters away with a hope and a prayer at QB?  Which situation has more potential for light at the end of the tunnel?  Which situation is more likely to be rectified by drafting down in future drafts and/or acquiring a lot of undervalued free agents?

What?

(11-28-2019, 10:17 AM)Synric Wrote: For every 1 you name drafted late first or outside the first I can name at least 3 that have busted. If they have a shot at a franchise star QB you take it no matter what because QB is the most important and hardest position to draft. 

Is Joe Burrow that guy? Its pointing that way but there is alot of college football left and a few great defenses he has to prove himself against (Even though he's beat Auburn, Alabama, and Florida all top defenses). If he comes through the SEC Championship and the CFB playoffs looking like he has then you take him. If he has issues on the big stage Chase Young is an excellent consolation prize.

LSU isnt likely to win the National Championship because they don't have the overall team that Clemson and Ohio State have...their defense is struggling and their offensive line has issues in pass protection. LSU is a top 4 team because of Joe Burrow...Keep that in mind.

I can also name a bunch of first Rd busts it's all relative. 

[*Synric*]

(11-28-2019, 04:21 PM)J24 Wrote: I can also name a bunch of first Rd busts it's all relative. 

It's not "relative". You said because certain guys in the NFL have found franchise QBs at the back end of the first or out of the first the Bengals can do it too....but the numbers tell you otherwise. Finding a franchise QB outside of the top 10 has a significant drop off in success percentage. Finding a Franchise QB outside of the first round is very low success percentage. Even top 10 the numbers don't look good.

That's because the Quarterback is such an important position and the hardest to find. If Joe Burrow is that guy you take him no matter what because the chance you have at getting another is very very low.

Edit: I'm not saying Burrow is that guy there is still alot of college football to prove he is or isnt but the way hes playing it's looking like he could be...He will likely set the SEC passing yards and TDs record Saturday.

[J24]

(11-28-2019, 04:51 PM)Synric Wrote: It's not "relative". You said because certain guys in the NFL have found franchise QBs at the back end of the first or out of the first the Bengals can do it too....but the numbers tell you otherwise. Finding a franchise QB outside of the top 10 has a significant drop off in success percentage. Finding a Franchise QB outside of the first round is very low success percentage. Even top 10 the numbers don't look good.

That's because the Quarterback is such an important position and the hardest to find. If Joe Burrow is that guy you take him no matter what because the chance you have at getting another is very very low.

Edit: I'm not saying Burrow is that guy there is still alot of college football to prove he is or isnt but the way hes playing it's looking like he could be...He will likely set the SEC passing yards and TDs record Saturday.

Yes it's less likely to find a QB after the first Rd then after but it's not impossible either. Fact is there many examples that prove that we don't absolutely have to draft a QB or we are doomed beyond repair.
If Burrow is the best prospect or Tua or some other QB is the best prospect then draft him but if their not then don't draft them. It's that simple but everyone wants to make special rules for QBs when it doesn't make much sense.

[coachmcneil71]

Gotta be able to put pressure on opposing teams QBs.
In a division with the probable MVP in Baltimore, Big Ben/ a talented rookie ( next season),and Baker Mayfield ; some could make the argument that drafting a pass rusher as gifted as Young could be just as important as drafting a QB first.

Jordan Love out of Utah State could be an absolute steal if he falls!

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-28-2019, 04:21 PM)J24 Wrote: I can also name a bunch of first Rd busts it's all relative. 

How many QB #1OA busts can you name?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-28-2019, 11:31 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: How many QB #1OA busts can you name?

I’d also be interested in how many DE’s have won MVP’s (regular season & SB)

[*Synric*]

Watching Drew Brees and Matt Ryan and thinking neither one of these guys have a huge cannon arm.

[J24]

(11-28-2019, 11:31 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: How many QB #1OA busts can you name?

Jamarcus Russell, Tim Couch, Marcus Mariota,  David Carr, Sam Bradford that's just over the past three decades.

[J24]

(11-28-2019, 11:51 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’d also be interested in how many DE’s have won MVP’s (regular season & SB)

IDK about Superbowls but Lawrence Taylor and Alan Page but he was a DT.

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-29-2019, 12:13 AM)J24 Wrote: Jamarcus Russell, Tim Couch, Marcus Mariota,  David Carr, Sam Bradford that's just over the past three decades.

Jamarcus Russell is the only bust and he had terrible habits coming in. That's on the Raiders for taking him. 

Couch was on an abysmal expansion team. None of the others are busts and Mariota was not #1OA. 


So, that's 1. 

#1OA QB: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_first_overall_National_Football_League_draft_picks

[SunsetBengal]

(11-28-2019, 07:58 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Gotta be able to put pressure on opposing teams QBs.
In a division with the probable MVP in Baltimore, Big Ben/ a talented rookie ( next season),and Baker Mayfield ; some could make the argument that drafting a pass rusher as gifted as Young could be just as important as drafting a QB first.

Jordan Love out of Utah State could be an absolute steal if he falls!

You might be onto something, coach.  However, I think you're looking in the wrong position group.  The way to compete in today's NFL is to have fast, sure-tackling LBs.  Yep, it's just that simple.  Mobile QBs are more than likely to elude the first wave of pressure (as evidenced by the current Bengals defense), as are most RBs.  

The era of just loading up a DL and having a good secondary is obsolete, fast, smart LBs have come back to relevance in the NFL.

[*rfaulk34*]

#1OA drafted QBs: 24 total since 1970, 22 qualify @ 2 full years in NFL. 

Playoffs; Goff, Luck, Newton, Stafford, Smith, EManning, Palmer, Vick, PManning, Bledsoe, George, Aikman, Testeverde, Elway, Bartkowski, Plunkett, Bradshaw. (17) 77%

SBs; Goff, Newton, EManning, PManning, Bledsoe, Aikman, Elway, Plunkett, Bradshaw. (9) 41%
SB winner; EManning, PManning, Aikman, Elway, Plunkett, Bradshaw. (6) 27%
Multiple SB winner; EManning, PManning, Aikman, Elway, Plunkett, Bradshaw. (6) 27%

HoF; PManning (lock), Aikman, Elway, Bradshaw. (4) 18%

Never made playoffs; Winston, Bradford, Russell, Carr, Couch. (5) 23%

Busts; Russell (1) 5%

[coachmcneil71]

(11-29-2019, 12:29 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You might be onto something, coach.  However, I think you're looking in the wrong position group.  The way to compete in today's NFL is to have fast, sure-tackling LBs.  Yep, it's just that simple.  Mobile QBs are more than likely to elude the first wave of pressure (as evidenced by the current Bengals defense), as are most RBs.  

The era of just loading up a DL and having a good secondary is obsolete, fast, smart LBs have come back to relevance in the NFL.

The thought of kicking Los inside next to Geno with Young and Hubbard on the edges, along with Lawson at OLB on obvious passing downs makes me smile. Good luck stopping that pass rush. 

I like the model that SF has used to become relavent. They got themselves a savy FA QB, added multiple RBs ( which we already have when healthy), and built a monster defensive line.

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure that the league has caught up with Mcvay's offense. It shows in LA and here. Granted the injury situation this season was ridiculous. Nonetheless, defenses have been keeping down the mighty Rams as well.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-29-2019, 12:13 AM)J24 Wrote: Jamarcus Russell, Tim Couch, Marcus Mariota,  David Carr, Sam Bradford that's just over the past three decades.

Mariota was not a #1OA.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-29-2019, 12:16 AM)J24 Wrote: IDK about Superbowls but Lawrence Taylor and Alan Page but he was a DT.

So the GOAT and one other guy lol

Seems to me it might just be a QB driven league...

[J24]

(11-29-2019, 01:34 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: So the GOAT and one other guy lol

Seems to me it might just be a QB driven league...

Sure but there is definitely a bias towards QB in the voting process for the MVP award and in college the Heisman award.

[J24]

(11-29-2019, 12:18 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Jamarcus Russell is the only bust and he had terrible habits coming in. That's on the Raiders for taking him. 

Couch was on an abysmal expansion team. None of the others are busts and Mariota was not #1OA. 


So, that's 1. 

#1OA QB: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_first_overall_National_Football_League_draft_picks

Ok then insert Winston over Mariota and yes all of the guys I mentioned were busts.

[coachmcneil71]

(11-29-2019, 12:45 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: #1OA drafted QBs: 24 total since 1970, 22 qualify @ 2 full years in NFL. 

Playoffs; Goff, Luck, Newton, Stafford, Smith, EManning, Palmer, Vick, PManning, Bledsoe, George, Aikman, Testeverde, Elway, Bartkowski, Plunkett, Bradshaw. (17) 77%

SBs; Goff, Newton, EManning, PManning, Bledsoe, Aikman, Elway, Plunkett, Bradshaw. (9) 41%
SB winner; EManning, PManning, Aikman, Elway, Plunkett, Bradshaw. (6) 27%
Multiple SB winner; EManning, PManning, Aikman, Elway, Plunkett, Bradshaw. (6) 27%

HoF; PManning (lock), Aikman, Elway, Bradshaw. (4) 18%

Never made playoffs; Winston, Bradford, Russell, Carr, Couch. (5) 23%

Busts; Russell (1) 5%

Ryan Leaf? Todd Marinovich? David Klingler? Akili Smith? Johnny Manziel?...sorry I may have misunderstood your post but I decided to name just a few first round QB busts.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-29-2019, 02:20 AM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Ryan Leaf? Todd Marinovich? David Klingler?

None of them were #1OA.