Civil War coming ?

[Dill]

(07-18-2022, 05:32 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: I personally know a guy who is 100% on board with the second Civil War. Self proclaimed Boogalo Boy. A political vegan (that's what I call libertarians, btw).

He looks exactly how you think he does.

"political vegan"  

That's apt, I guess, or was until 10 years ago. 

[BigPapaKain]

(07-18-2022, 05:45 PM)Dill Wrote: "political vegan"  

That's apt, I guess, or was until 10 years ago. 

I just mean a libertarian will tell you they're a libertarian. Just like a vegan or someone who does crossfit.

[hollodero]

(07-18-2022, 11:08 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Not sure why people think there will be a civil war.
Extremist factions on the Left and Right won't exactly collaborate, as there is a ton of belief issues between them, and if one "was to win" they would instill a totalitarian style government in order to push their beliefs on to everyone else, which wouldn't even go over on the majority and would result with them getting thrown out.

With that said, any group that tries, will be taken out faster than a monkey flings poo.

So I'm not sure why some of you even think this is a remote possibility???

It might be unlikely, but imho remotely possible. As someone from abroad watching the Capitol storm gives me civil war vibes. What if these folks had succeeded, achieved some of their goals the participating proud boys and other extremists sure were up to. Like actually finding some senators, or Nancy Pelosi, or Pence, what if they had actually dragged them out and killed them. It's not a hypothetical without merit, they came quite close.

I guess that would have made them heroes in the eyes of quite some folks, it might have found emboldened copycats. The start of a guerilla movement, if you will. Maybe they'd be counter-initiatives from some of the more violence-prone people from the left spectrum. That's a form of civil war I can very well foresee, where violent attacks on the political rival rise to a dramatic level. Especially ifTrump or someone of this mindset were successful in overturning an election and remain in power. If that could have happened, I don't know, I think it could and still can. Then what, would everyone just take it and stay calm regardless? I don't know. I think that kind of civil war is remotely possible at least.

The underlying hatred is there, that much imho is for sure. The extremes of your two political camps grow in numbers, have no common ground, no basis and no will for discussion or compromise or agreement, it's utter hatred and this sort of rage can lead to violence for sure.

[Dill]

(07-18-2022, 08:37 AM)bengaloo Wrote: I dont live anywhere near those. It takes me at least 30 minutes to get to a place with streets lol. There are no gangs here, and none will ever be here. They would have to fight their way through some pretty die hard country rednecks to even get 5 miles from me.  That is how far the nearest community is from me. But that wont happen, because the kind of folks who would do that arent looking for a scenic nature escape. None of them would make it in nature even if they did.

But of course I would defend myself if it came down to it. The few neighbors I do have would certainly help. We are a pretty close nit group of folks up on this mountain.

Personally, I think if all this were to happen, it would not be widespread. There would be hotspots and central locations where the action is. Especially if its citizens vs government. If its truly a revolution, then the people will go to where their perceived enemies are. It really wouldnt be a whole lot different in a civil war. The hot spots would be cities, and imo, not all of them would even be hot spots. The entire population would never take part in this. It would be 10% or less based on history, which is around 32-33 million people, which is around twice the size of China's entire army for example.

LOL to the first bolded, how can you be sure those "die hard country rednecks" wouldn't be on one side, and wondering if Bengaloo down the road supports the Constitution or is a traitor? I have to challenge your assumption that insurgents wouldn't "make it" in nature. You're going to find plenty of militia folks who do very well in "nature." Their boogaloo bags have been packed for years.

As to the second, I sort of agree with you there, only I'm sure we'd see NOTHING like 32-33 million people involved. There could be an insurgency for sure, but it would be a few militia groups against helicopter gunships, and only in some places in some states. Militants might take over a state capital in Texas or Mississippi, for short time. We are not going to see whole states succeeding and deploying their national guards, etc. Nothing like the Civil War. Worst case scenario is right wingers within the military funnel ordnance to the insurgents, as happened in Iraq and A-stan. THAT would do some damage. Still  . . . 

One caution though, if we do have a small scale insurgency sometime in the next 2-3 years, its repression might lead to a deeper and more thoroughgoing division. But again it would be a small hard core. Once millions of Americans finally get taste of the insecurity and fear which attend such insurgencies, most will not want that again, ever. 

Remember, this isn't really some kind of "both sides" danger with 160 million people on one side pitted against 160 million on the other. The insurgency danger really only comes from "one side" and it will more likely lose than gain support as it acts.

[Dill]

(07-18-2022, 11:08 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Not sure why people think there will be a civil war.
Extremist factions on the Left and Right won't exactly collaborate, as there is a ton of belief issues between them, and if one "was to win" they would instill a totalitarian style government in order to push their beliefs on to everyone else, which wouldn't even go over on the majority and would result with them getting thrown out.

With that said, any group that tries, will be taken out faster than a monkey flings poo.

So I'm not sure why some of you even think this is a remote possibility???

I'm with you O-Mike. A civil war would be a VERY remote possibility. There could be a small scale insurgency though, driven
by die hard Trump believers, or those even more extreme who come to think Trump betrayed them. 

Recall how many right wing mass murderers thought their murders would set off a race war, only to find themselves dead or jailed tout suite. There are millions of right wingers who are sure the government is coming for their guns and that will be their "signal" take arms and "water the tree of liberty with blood." But that fantasized trigger is never coming because they are in fact OVER REPRESENTED in our government as is. 

People thinking "Civil war!" at this point likely take their "both sidesism" too seriously, crippling political analysis
and accurate threat assessment. There is an uncompromising militant right so there MUST be a "left" equivalent. 

But no, there is no equally armed and militant "left" in the U.S., squared off against the right and ready to install a totalitarian government if its side wins.

There is only, on the one side, the U.S. government still representing the vast majority of U.S. citizens-- Dems, independents, and anti-Trump Republicans, and a few million pro-Trump Republicans who will reject violence. And on the other side, millions of Trump believers, most of whom won't take up arms, or won't for long, when they and their families experience first hand the physical insecurity following the various regional anarchies their insurgency would set loose. Even Fox would not go so far as to support it, dividing and drying up the militant right's human resources. The "independents" who previously could not tell who was worse--Hillary/Biden or Trump?--would finally have their answer and pick the side most likely to preserve democracy and security. 

So yes. "faster than a monkey flings poo." I agree.

BUT!!! just because there won't be a civil war and an insurgency would probably end quickly and badly for the insurgents, that doesn't mean we aren't in for some real damage as a country. What happens over the next few years as "election integrity" laws nullify the popular vote in some states, and the SCOTUS continues ruling to favor a religious minority and the wealthiest 1%, could surpass the 60s in creating political instability, riots, and terrorist acts. The latter ARE very likely to increase. There could even be some "left" terrorism if pro-choicers decide to mimic tactics of extreme anti-abortion groups. 

[bengaloo]

(07-19-2022, 01:30 PM)Dill Wrote: LOL to the first bolded, how can you be sure those "die hard country rednecks" wouldn't be on one side, and wondering if Bengaloo down the road supports the Constitution or is a traitor? I have to challenge your assumption that insurgents wouldn't "make it" in nature. You're going to find plenty of militia folks who do very well in "nature." Their boogaloo bags have been packed for years.

As to the second, I sort of agree with you there, only I'm sure we'd see NOTHING like 32-33 million people involved. There could be an insurgency for sure, but it would be a few militia groups against helicopter gunships, and only in some places in some states. Militants might take over a state capital in Texas or Mississippi, for short time. We are not going to see whole states succeeding and deploying their national guards, etc. Nothing like the Civil War. Worst case scenario is right wingers within the military funnel ordnance to the insurgents, as happened in Iraq and A-stan. THAT would do some damage. Still  . . . 

One caution though, if we do have a small scale insurgency sometime in the next 2-3 years, its repression might lead to a deeper and more thoroughgoing division. But again it would be a small hard core. Once millions of Americans finally get taste of the insecurity and fear which attend such insurgencies, most will not want that again, ever. 

Remember, this isn't really some kind of "both sides" danger with 160 million people on one side pitted against 160 million on the other. The insurgency danger really only comes from "one side" and it will more likely lose than gain support as it acts.

I dont judge or categorize people the way you do. Im not against people because they dont agree with my politics and because of that they are not against me. I did always consider myself a liberal democrat, but I will tell you what, those "rednecks" and "militia types" from what I have witnessed personally, are way more open minded to opposing views than their political counterparts. I would worry more about the far left to be honest. From what I see they are the most closed minded and violent these days and its really not even close. I'm embarrassed for the left right now and have distanced myself from all of the insanity. 

I think you should give it a rest, take the foil hat off, go outside and get to know more people. Dont talk about politics, just get to know them for who they are. Try it, its great. 

[kevin]

The only people who want Civil War in the USA are completely Nuts. Crazy, Wacko, Out of Their Mind Nuts. If you think the economy is bad now, just imagine how expensive everything would be in Civil War. That is if there was anything left to buy, which there probably wouldn't be.

I can see Russia or China or Taliban types wanting the USA in a Civil War.

These groups called 3 percenters, or Proud Boys and such were out to overthrow the USA way before Trump. Soldier of Fortune Nuts who have been gearing up for taking over the USA for decades and centuries, and we can add the KKK and The Neo Nazis. It would be a mistake to think there are no Black Groups who would give them a fight.

The Best thing for The USA is no Civil War. If The USA and The Southern States can not get over the Civil War of the 19th Century and move forward as a Nation into the 21st Century, the USA is doomed to collapse. These songs about If The South Would Have Won, We Would Have It Made, or If Heaven Ain't Like Dixie Then I Don't Want To Go. That nonsense holds The USA back.

What the USA needs to do is Progress. The USA needs more Oil Refinement places in the North and South, the Arabs laugh how we are not able to refine our own Oil. We need to rebuild roads and bridges. We need to build and upkeep water power dams, wind power, solar power. We need to make it so The US Farmers can Grow and Make A Profit, get those Farm Products to Market. This means there is Much Work to be done. Jobs for those willing to Work.

Now at ball games I do not see players on the verge of Civil War. I'm sure at Military Bases soldiers and sailors still follow orders and Duty and Honor in United We Stand. I also feel 80 % of the USA are people just trying to take care of their Families with no time for such Civil War Talk Nonsense, and this is The Silent Majority you do NOT see on TV, but they stretch across the Nation doing their Jobs each day like Spokes Inside A Wheel. The Doctors, The Mechanics, The Policeman, The Mailman, The Truckers, The Waitresses. The Firemen. The Teachers. The Farmers, The Grocers. Dads, Moms Children, Families.

You all better pray that the 80 % of Americans do not suffer because a minority of Nut Jobs want to restart The Civil War. Together WE can be a Great Nation. Divided it will be a Hell Hole. No longer the USA, but one of the worst places on Earth to live with little food, little or no power to homes. Fighting and bloodshed in the streets and fields. As President Kennedy said, " It seems to me that WE deserve a better Nation than that ". President Lincoln warned that a USA Divided will perish. No President from Washington to Obama ever wanted Civil War. So LET US GO FORTH into the 21st Century, not backwards into the 19th Century. Let The USA be UNITED WE STAND as WE remain the greatest Nation on Earth to live in. More Blunt, you do not crap where you eat. Let us not allow these Minority of Insurrection and Treason Nuts to ruin the USA for the Majority of Working Families. Do not let them crap all over the USA.

We really do live in the best Nation on Earth, so to screw it up with Civil War would be the most Stupid thing we could do. Very simply, those who do not like The USA, should Leave It. Do Not Drain The Swamp or Burn, Baby, Burn for if that is your attitude, Just Leave. And I will finish with words from a John Wayne speech, not a movie speech, but from the heart. John Wayne said, " It seems to me the ones doing the most belly aching about this here USA, are the ones who were born with a Silver Spoon in their mouth. The ones who have The Least to complain about ".

So Let us not forget the words after 911, good words.....UNITED WE STAND....We Pledge To ONE NATION, UNDIVIDED, With LIBERTY and JUSTICE for ALL...no matter what some treason seeking rabble think.

And some more John Wayne for you. THE HYPHEN : The Hyphen is short but it does great harm. Look at The Division such a little line brings. People calling themselves Republican-Americans, Democrat-Americans, Conservative-Americans, Liberal-Americans, White-Americans, Black-Americans, English-Americans, French-Americans, Native-Americans, Mexican-Americans, African-Americans, Irish-Americans and On and On. Look at all the harm the short line of the Hyphen can bring. At the end of the day, YOU ARE AN AMERICAN. Be PROUD YOU ARE. An American you will stay, so throw the Hyphen away.

[*bengalfan74*]

(07-19-2022, 03:28 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I dont judge or categorize people the way you do. Im not against people because they dont agree with my politics and because of that they are not against me. I did always consider myself a liberal democrat, but I will tell you what, those "rednecks" and "militia types" from what I have witnessed personally, are way more open minded to opposing views than their political counterparts. I would worry more about the far left to be honest. From what I see they are the most closed minded and violent these days and its really not even close. I'm embarrassed for the left right now and have distanced myself from all of the insanity. 

I think you should give it a rest, take the foil hat off, go outside and get to know more people. Dont talk about politics, just get to know them for who they are. Try it, its great. 

It's been my experience that a larger percentage of the "left' is way more entrenched in their beliefs and are totally unwilling to budge on any issue than those on the "right". 

And I don't get the totally uncompromising position many people take on any and every issue and it's one of the bigger problems. They're way more interested in "winning" than anything else.

[bengaloo]

(07-19-2022, 03:41 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: It's been my experience that a larger percentage of the "left' is way more entrenched in their beliefs and are totally unwilling to budge on any issue than those on the "right". 

And I don't get the totally uncompromising position many people take on any and every issue and it's one of the bigger problems. They're way more interested in "winning" than anything else.

I totally agree with this. Hopefully its just a passing fad but its definitely become that way from my observation. Very entrenched and unwilling to budge. Also, pretty extreme behavior over issues they disagree with, like roe vs wade for a small example. The insanity I saw coming from people I know on the left was just way out of line and extreme for what this issue really is. 

[Lucidus]

(07-19-2022, 03:41 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: It's been my experience that a larger percentage of the "left' is way more entrenched in their beliefs and are totally unwilling to budge on any issue than those on the "right". 

And I don't get the totally uncompromising position many people take on any and every issue and it's one of the bigger problems. They're way more interested in "winning" than anything else.

The Right are the epitome of not wanting to budge. They've been that way for decades. Just about everything they do is aimed at turning the clock back in time; undoing progress and destroying equality. 

[Lucidus]

(07-19-2022, 03:47 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I totally agree with this. Hopefully its just a passing fad but its definitely become that way from my observation. Very entrenched and unwilling to budge. Also, pretty extreme behavior over issues they disagree with, like roe vs wade for a small example. The insanity I saw coming from people I know on the left was just way out of line and extreme for what this issue really is. 

Yes, the Right is most definitely the party of mental stability, unquestioned empathy and fact-based rational. 

Last night, the former chair of the Barrow County GOP—who worked elections for 24 years—tried to reason with GA Republicans on their acceptance of election lies.

The audience walked out. pic.twitter.com/RZKAwFpQ8T

— The Republican Accountability Project (@AccountableGOP) July 19, 2022

 

Gov. Ron DeSantis’ (R-FL) made up controversy of the day: “[Florida schools] were doing woke math … It’s not 2 plus 2 equals ‘Well how do you feel about that? Is that an injustice?’” pic.twitter.com/HjyRmPtPVX

— The Recount (@therecount) July 15, 2022

 

The January 6th Committee’s opening montage with never before seen footage of the Capitol riot. /4

(2:28 PM - 2:38 PM)#January6thCommitteeHearings pic.twitter.com/U0Gl0BToOS

— PatriotTakes ?? (@patriottakes) June 10, 2022

 

A 10 year old Ohio girl is raped

She has to travel across state lines thanks to a GOP law criminalizing abortion in-state

Republicans call her a liar, threaten legal action against her doctor & block legislation saying girls like her cannot be jailed

Do I have that right?

— Zac Petkanas (@Zac_Petkanas) July 14, 2022

 

Mitch McConnell endorsed. https://t.co/Aix1X6LjmG

— Sarah Longwell (@SarahLongwell25) July 19, 2022

 

[Dill]

(07-19-2022, 03:41 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: It's been my experience that a larger percentage of the "left' is way more entrenched in their beliefs and are totally unwilling to budge on any issue than those on the "right". 

And I don't get the totally uncompromising position many people take on any and every issue and it's one of the bigger problems. They're way more interested in "winning" than anything else.

This I don't get at all.

I always put "the left" in quotation marks because it is not really a left, but mostly pragmatic, centrist liberals who are quite willing to compromise. They don't send politicians to Washington simply to block all the other side's legislation. Their primaries aren't between people who try to one up their opponents by being even more uncompromising. (That's not to say some don't go more leftward in campaigns, but they don't disparage compromise in principle.)

Take the abortion issue--most pro-choice laws were always compromises. Where the anti-choice people take over, there is none whatsoever. Someone, like a governor backed by his party and legislature, who wants a raped 10 year old to carry a fetus to term is someone "totally unwilling to budge." Unfair to say that of pro-choicers who, for example, will accept various restrictions in the second/third trimester and the like.

Well over 50% of the Republican party still believes, without evidence, that Biden stole the election, and they are impervious to counter evidence. Hard to get more "unbudgeable" than that. Or are you saying that people take a "totally uncompromising position" when they don't accept claims without evidence? It seems to me that those state officials in Arizona, Georgia, Michigan and Pennsylvania WERE compromising when they allowed recounts based on rumor. It would be a misuse of the term "uncompromising" to claim they now "won't budge" when the recounts affirm the original results. They SHOULDN'T budge in such cases.

There are certainly some issues "the left" won't budge on, like the right of Blacks to vote. There should be some issues, in a liberal democracy, that no one will budge on--starting with fair elections and a free press. Right now we are experiencing a time in which issues we thought settled are once again contested. It is not good analysis of the cause of this to throw out blanket accusations that "both sides" are really behaving the same, or worse to cast the side most willing to compromise as the most unwilling to budge.

[Dill]

(07-19-2022, 03:28 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I dont judge or categorize people the way you do. Im not against people because they dont agree with my politics and because of that they are not against me. I did always consider myself a liberal democrat, but I will tell you what, those "rednecks" and "militia types" from what I have witnessed personally, are way more open minded to opposing views than their political counterparts. I would worry more about the far left to be honest. From what I see they are the most closed minded and violent these days and its really not even close. I'm embarrassed for the left right now and have distanced myself from all of the insanity. 

I think you should give it a rest, take the foil hat off, go outside and get to know more people. Dont talk about politics, just get to know them for who they are. Try it, its great. 

You may not "judge or categorize" people the WAY I do--e.g., I don't label people "tin foil hat" wearers--but you do label and judge them. "Die hard country rednecks" was your label, right?

It is impossible to have a political discussion or analyze politics without recognizing that differing views/positions tend to concentrate in differing demographic groups, which we then categorize with labels for ease and clarity of reference. Pronouns like "us" and "them" are not sufficient. The point is to make the labels descriptive and accurate, not simply discharge of affect., like name calling. You are dividing people into "categories" when you oppose easy going, open minded people like yourself to the close-minded and violent "left."

If I understand you, you say you are not against people who don't agree with your politics, just "close mindedness" which you see concentrated in that category you label "the left." They are a more serious worry than a right which has already attempted a coup, and has passed legislation in some swing states which can throw any contested election to a Republican legislature for resolution. So I have to wonder, what is the "worry" about? Surely some unspoken politics/priorities in there. NOT just about "close-mindedness."

And did you see Lucidus' post #91 above? Why don't 50 million Republicans refusing to admit Biden won count as close-minded? What comparable phenomenon on "the Left" could trump this??? 

(07-19-2022, 03:28 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I think you should give it a rest, take the foil hat off, go outside and get to know more people. Dont talk about politics, just get to know them for who they are. Try it, its great. 

??? Why would you suppose I don't go out and "get to know more people"? Or that I only talk about politics with people? I don't assume anything like that about the anonymous people who post on this board--though sometimes I do assume their knowledge of politics is not broad or deep. I assume all have lives outside the board in which they do normal things with family and friends and at work that have nothing to do with politics.

Even if I could meet more people than I already do, as I travel around the U.S., and even if I don't talk about politics with them, the division affecting the politics and policies of this country won't go away, will it? If I ignore politics, as you suggest, I'd just be cocooning, only to come out every now and then with little grasp of the issues people are arguing about, as politicians make laws which affect me about issues I have not taken the trouble to inform myself about. That's  recipe for "both sidesism," for sure. Seems like you are just asking me not to participate/discuss politics at a moment when U.S. democracy is in crisis, owing in part to massive disinformation campaigns from the right. Leave the field to their superminority control?

[Belsnickel]

Look, folks, partisans of both sides are obstinate in their beliefs. That's what makes them partisans. Most people don't like to change their minds; it's human nature. We have to force ourselves to be open to new information that alters our already preconceived paradigm, and it is uncomfortable to do so because the first step in that process is admitting our faulty understanding.

I have my policy priorities, what I think are things we should focus on for a country. The policies I want to see enacted in that effort are based on the evidence presented to me. This isn't how most people work. Most people aren't searching for white papers and looking up the cited materials. Political decisions are made 90% by emotion by 90% of the people. That's just the way of it. And on top of that, they decide their opinion on the issue when the topic is presented to them. They are ad hoc opinions formed when needed based almost entirely on emotion. That's how it works for most people. Left, right, and center. Most of us on here are a bit different because we actually discuss these issues, but it is still mostly emotion based arguments being made on here. I don't see people citing actual research on these topics.

So just give it a rest on the "your side!", "no, your side!" nonsense. Almost everyone is obstinate and almost entirely unwilling to change. It's human nature.

Also, no one wants a civil war (except maybe the militia nutjobs). It's just important to recognize the signs of the discontent in this country and what it may bring. The reason I could never be a full on communist is because I am much more in favor of the ballot box over bullets, but if the ballot box is rigged against us then you never know what could happen.

[bengaloo]

Lol good lord. I'm not responding to all that garbage. Let it go.