Coronavirus

[SunsetBengal]

(03-06-2020, 05:36 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote:

Coronavirus is not a laughing matter..  


Unless of course, you're laughing because Nancy decided to use a health emergency for political gain?  In that case yes, her position is laughable.

[hollodero]

(03-06-2020, 05:44 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Coronavirus is not a laughing matter..  


Unless of course, you're laughing because Nancy decided to use a health emergency for political gain?  In that case yes, her position is laughable.

I mean, the house passed a bill now that by far exceeds the WH demands. With a resounding majority. Only 2 against it.
It was held up last week over disagreements on funding and price controls and some other things. Over concerns that were raised by Republicans, that is. The parties disagreed on technicalities. That's all there is to it.

Enter someone with a far-fetched conspiracy that it's about some regional commercials, a theory that makes little to no sense on its face. Dems want to delay the vote to blame republicans for not voting in the delayed vote in political ads through the weekend, and then these republicans get to vote a few days later, making said ads obsolete anyways? What kind of idiotic, pointless plot would that be? But you just eat it up without further question. Just because you like the tone of it. Hey, that makes Dems look awful! Is it somewhat plausible or does it look like a cheap, fudged smear? Ah, who cares.

In the meantime, your president lies through his teeth about the virus, lies about the number of cases, about the outlook for the virus, about a possible vaccine. Called it a hoax. Called it a democrat ploy to hurt him through the stock market. Contradicts his experts that have to correct him. Blames Obama for problems with testing. Comes out with "hunches" on its lethality and talks nonsense about going to work with the virus and the virus dieing in spring and whatnot. And the sole lucky thing for your country is that no one believes him anyway. Or God forbid bases an important decision on your president's words. If you look for gross irresponsibility, that's the obvious place you might want to start.
Oh and his son goes on TV and blames Democrats to root for millions of deaths. Unsavory as it gets. You look for using the virus for cheap political shots, there you go.

If our lousy chancellor had so blatantly and carelessly lied like Trump about this virus, we all, as people, including his fans and voters, would feel deeply insulted by all that deliberate misinformation. It would be a scandal. As would come natural. The extent of disrespectful BS you're willing to swallow from your leader is astonishing. I mean, root for the guy, vote for the guy, I'd have no issue with that. But maybe just stop digesting every little BS partisan piece you get offered from him and his propaganda channels. Because that is indeed laughable.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-06-2020, 06:38 PM)hollodero Wrote: I mean, the house passed a bill now that by far exceeds the WH demands. With a resounding majority. Only 2 against it.
It was held up last week over disagreements on funding and price controls and some other things. Over concerns that were raised by Republicans, that is. The parties disagreed on technicalities. That's all there is to it.

Enter someone with a far-fetched conspiracy that it's about some regional commercials, a theory that makes little to no sense on its face. Dems want to delay the vote to blame republicans for not voting in the delayed vote in political ads through the weekend, and then these republicans get to vote a few days later, making said ads obsolete anyways? What kind of idiotic, pointless plot would that be? But you just eat it up without further question. Just because you like the tone of it. Hey, that makes Dems look awful! Is it somewhat plausible or does it look like a cheap, fudged smear? Ah, who cares.

In the meantime, your president lies through his teeth about the virus, lies about the number of cases, about the outlook for the virus, about a possible vaccine. Called it a hoax. Called it a democrat ploy to hurt him through the stock market. Contradicts his experts that have to correct him. Blames Obama for problems with testing. Comes out with "hunches" on its lethality and talks nonsense about going to work with the virus and the virus dieing in spring and whatnot. And the sole lucky thing for your country is that no one believes him anyway. Or God forbid bases an important decision on your president's words. If you look for gross irresponsibility, that's the obvious place you might want to start.
Oh and his son goes on TV and blames Democrats to root for millions of deaths. Unsavory as it gets. You look for using the virus for cheap political shots, there you go.

If our lousy chancellor had so blatantly and carelessly lied like Trump about this virus, we all, as people, including his fans and voters, would feel deeply insulted by all that deliberate misinformation. It would be a scandal. As would come natural. The extent of disrespectful BS you're willing to swallow from your leader is astonishing. I mean, root for the guy, vote for the guy, I'd have no issue with that. But maybe just stop digesting every little BS partisan piece you get offered from him and his propaganda channels. Because that is indeed laughable.

How did he lie about the virus?  He declared a National Health Emergency before there were ever even any diagnosed cases in the US.  He immediately went to work and appointed his second in command to oversee the efforts, asked Congress for money shortly thereafter.  It's not his fault that Nancy decided to play partisan with American lives, and withhold the bill from reaching the House floor until after the primaries.

[Dill]

(03-06-2020, 06:38 PM)hollodero Wrote: In the meantime, your president lies through his teeth about the virus, lies about the number of cases, about the outlook for the virus, about a possible vaccine. Called it a hoax. Called it a democrat ploy to hurt him through the stock market. Contradicts his experts that have to correct him. Blames Obama for problems with testing. Comes out with "hunches" on its lethality and talks nonsense about going to work with the virus and the virus dieing in spring and whatnot. And the sole lucky thing for your country is that no one believes him anyway. Or God forbid bases an important decision on your president's words. If you look for gross irresponsibility, that's the obvious place you might want to start.
Oh and his son goes on TV and blames Democrats to root for millions of deaths. Unsavory as it gets. You look for using the virus for cheap political shots, there you go.

Have to disagree with you on the bolded.

Certainly half the Trump base DOES believe him, just as bad, the more skeptical other half see health warnings from the MSM or House Democrats as "just spin" targeting Trump. Ingraham and McCarthy there to help them understand: "Dems would rather let people die than do the right thing."

Rep for everything else you said.

[hollodero]

(03-06-2020, 06:55 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: How did he lie about the virus?

Well, for starters he claimed there were probably 10 cases in the US when there already were around 60. He went on to say that the WHO numbers on its currently known lethality are "false", even though they are calculated and not estimated. People from his administration (a HS guy named Wolf) told Congress that the coronavirus is no more lethal than the common flu. They said it was contained and that containment is "close to airtight" (that was Kudlow), while Trump also insists that many people have the virus and go to work (run around freely) with the virus [A little "pick the lie" game there, for both things can't be true]. He said Obama is to blame for faulty test kits - after calling Democrat's critizism of these things a "hoax" to hurt him. His son accuses Democrats of rooting for millions of deaths, and Pence has his back. He expressed his assessment that the virus will "magically disappear", possibly "with the heat", even though the virus would have disappeared in warmer countries by now if that were true. He said "we're very close to a vaccine", when the real timetable is one year and then some.

In short, he downplays it. With all these misinformations, lies, false premises and conspiracy talk. No responsible leader should ever do that, no matter how important he deems the stock market for his reelection or whatever his motivation is. Giving out inaccurate pieces of information in a health crisis is willfully endangering people.

Never mind guys like Tom Cotton that allege the virus might be man-made in a Chinese lab. Your free speech hero Limbaugh called it a common cold and that people who warn about a possible spread are the "deep state". And that calls for more response funding were dishonest and just a Democrat smear. I mention that for funding is the issue you slam Pelosi for. Slam your guy instead.

As to the Pelosi part of your post, I said my piece about that. I get it though. You look for anti-liberal news, find it and circle it around if it meets this one condition. In this particular case with this Pelosi accusation, I can just once more urge you to think through the alleged sinister plot that Ingraham piled up there. For it still makes no sense. Even with the little shift towards "the alleged holdup was about the primaries", as if that connection made any more sense. This particular McCarthy/Ingraham/Sunset theory even lacks motive, the one thing such theories usually can provide.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-06-2020, 08:00 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, for starters he claimed there were probably 10 cases in the US when there already were around 60. He went on to say that the WHO numbers on its currently known lethality are "false", even though they are calculated and not estimated. People from his administration (a HS guy named Wolf) told Congress that the coronavirus is no more lethal than the common flu. They said it was contained and that containment is "close to airtight" (that was Kudlow), while Trump also insists that many people have the virus and go to work (run around freely) with the virus [A little "pick the lie" game there, for both things can't be true]. He said Obama is to blame for faulty test kits - after calling Democrat's critizism of these things a "hoax" to hurt him. His son accuses Democrats of rooting for millions of deaths, and Pence has his back. He expressed his assessment that the virus will "magically disappear", possibly "with the heat", even though the virus would have disappeared in warmer countries by now if that were true. He said "we're very close to a vaccine", when the real timetable is one year and then some.

In short, he downplays it. With all these misinformations, lies, false premises and conspiracy talk. No responsible leader should ever do that, no matter how important he deems the stock market for his reelection or whatever his motivation is. Giving out inaccurate pieces of information in a health crisis is willfully endangering people.

Never mind guys like Tom Cotton that allege the virus might be man-made in a Chinese lab. Your free speech hero Limbaugh called it a common cold and that people who warn about a possible spread are the "deep state". And that calls for more response funding were dishonest and just a Democrat smear. I mention that for funding is the issue you slam Pelosi for. Slam your guy instead.

As to the Pelosi part of your post, I said my piece about that. I get it though. You look for anti-liberal news, find it and circle it around if it meets this one condition. In this particular case with this Pelosi accusation, I can just once more urge you to think through the alleged sinister plot that Ingraham piled up there. For it still makes no sense. Even with the little shift towards "the alleged holdup was about the primaries", as if that connection made any more sense. This particular McCarthy/Ingraham/Sunset theory even lacks motive, the one thing such theories usually can provide.

Umm, "calculated" on a future outcome is the same as estimated.  I'm a surveyor, I work in exact measurements.  

[hollodero]

(03-06-2020, 08:14 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Umm, "calculated" on a future outcome is the same as estimated.  I'm a surveyor, I work in exact measurements.  

But the WHO number did not address future outcomes. It calculates exactly how many of the reported cases lead to fatalities.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-06-2020, 08:28 PM)hollodero Wrote: But the WHO number did not address future outcomes. It calculates exactly how many of the reported cases lead to fatalities.

Here's the thing, they can't really know.  Most of the people who die, have pre-existing health issues.  Hard to predict accurately what portion of the people who contract the virus will be ones with pre-existing health problems, and which ones are generally healthy and will not even know if they have it.

[hollodero]

(03-06-2020, 09:37 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Here's the thing, they can't really know.  Most of the people who die, have pre-existing health issues.  Hard to predict accurately what portion of the people who contract the virus will be ones with pre-existing health problems, and which ones are generally healthy and will not even know if they have it.

Of course the virus is more deadly with say elderly, weakened or somehow unhealthy people. As are illnesses in general. A lethality case does not need to take this into account, count elderly or otherwise ailing people as "half-deaths" or whatever. The accuracy of the WHO number is not affected by the fact that, yeah, young healthy people are less likely to die from the coronavirus then older or less healthy people. I don't know what this adds to the issue at hand.

The WHO number still is not "false" in any way. It still relates reported cases to reported deaths, and I'd say it's safe to assume that those deaths, possible misdiagnosis neglected (but that argument can go both ways anyway) were ultimately caused by the virus and not any "pre-existing condition". It is fair to point to the fact that there might be a bigger number of actual cases, compared to the reported cases, and many experts point to that and assume with caution that the real lethality might be somehow lower. But that still gives the president no reason to call the WHO number "false" and instead put his own "hunches" out there. You don't deal with a health crisis by throwing out completely unfounded hunches just willy-nilly in an attempt to downplay it. It seems quite strange to even have to say that.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-06-2020, 09:57 PM)hollodero Wrote: Of course the virus is more deadly with say elderly, weakened or somehow unhealthy people. As are illnesses in general. A lethality case does not need to take this into account, count elderly or otherwise ailing people as "half-deaths" or whatever. The accuracy of the WHO number is not affected by the fact that, yeah, young healthy people are less likely to die from the coronavirus then older or less healthy people. I don't know what this adds to the issue at hand.

The WHO number still is not "false" in any way. It still relates reported cases to reported deaths, and I'd say it's safe to assume that those deaths, possible misdiagnosis neglected (but that argument can go both ways anyway) were ultimately caused by the virus and not any "pre-existing condition". It is fair to point to the fact that there might be a bigger number of actual cases, compared to the reported cases, and many experts point to that and assume with caution that the real lethality might be somehow lower. But that still gives the president no reason to call the WHO number "false" and instead put his own "hunches" out there. You don't deal with a health crisis by throwing out completely unfounded hunches just willy-nilly in an attempt to downplay it. It seems quite strange to even have to say that.

Well, every death from the virus in the US, so far, has involved individuals with underlying health issues.  You can continue to take the WHO as the Gospel if you want to, heck they might even be as credible as the UN..  As for me, I'll continue to take the word of our President, who gets his info from the best researchers that the US has to offer.

[Belsnickel]

(03-06-2020, 10:23 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Well, every death from the virus in the US, so far, has involved individuals with underlying health issues.  You can continue to take the WHO as the Gospel if you want to, heck they might even be as credible as the UN..  As for me, I'll continue to take the word of our President, who gets his info from the best researchers that the US has to offer.

The WHO utilizes the best researchers the world has to offer, probably some of the ones Trump fired when he cut the budget of the CDC and other agencies that typically respond to these sorts of things.

[Dill]

(03-06-2020, 08:14 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Umm, "calculated" on a future outcome is the same as estimated.  I'm a surveyor, I work in exact measurements.  

You asked how Trump lied about the virus. 

Do you agree that the Trump lies Hollo listed, along with others in his administration and under his control, are in fact Trump lies?

Are the WHO numbers indeed "false"; and were there exactly 10 cases in the US when Trump said there were?

Is the coronavirus really less or "only" as lethal as the common flu?

Did he call the virus a Dem "hoax," or was it really a Dem "hoax" and so not a lie?

Did Trump say that an "Obama era rule" somehow restricted testing--and his administration fixed that?
And if you agree he did say that, was that a lie or was there really an Obama era rule restricting testing which he quickly fixed?

Is the containment "airtight" while people are walking around and going to work with it?

Trump said we are close to having a vaccine.  Was he lying or did he mean a year-and-a-half when he said "close"?

Could it be that he is not lying in the usual sense, telling known untruths, but just spouting disinformation with much caring whether it is true? Maybe it is not fair to call him a "liar" in that case.

[hollodero]

(03-06-2020, 10:23 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Well, every death from the virus in the US, so far, has involved individuals with underlying health issues.  You can continue to take the WHO as the Gospel if you want to, heck they might even be as credible as the UN..  As for me, I'll continue to take the word of our President, who gets his info from the best researchers that the US has to offer.

And I will consider that decision to go with Trump's words over anything else as particularly irrational.

Which leads me to the same point again: How on earth can you overlook his constant, permanent lying about all kinds of matters big or small?

I get why one would still vote for him nonetheless, again that is not my issue, but this blind belief is inexplicable to me. To actually give him credibility over anything and everyone else. Until everyone but Trump, everyone who ever contradicted him, the whole world is lieing and crooked. While he in fact at the same time lies at every turn and it is obvious like the sun that he does.
In this corona lethality case, even Trump was aware enough to at least call his careless words a "hunch". While the US' own experts, the ones you'd consider "the best", contradict him on that. Still you take the hunch as truth and at face value. This seems like a really absurd level of worship. 

To the point at hand, again no one is disputing that the virus behaves like almost any other illness in being more deadly for the weak, the elderly and the ones already ill of some sorts. You behave as if those deaths don't really count. But that's not how lethality rates work.

[hollodero]

(03-06-2020, 10:43 PM)Dill Wrote:  Could it be that he is not lying in the usual sense, telling known untruths, but just spouting disinformation with much caring whether it is true?  Maybe it is not fair to call him a "liar" in that case.

I thought about that. E.g. can expressing a hunch be a lie.
Then I thought that everything he said is not just unfettered by the truth, but also fueled by a clear ambition to diminish the virus' dangerousness.

Yeah, imho those are still lies alright. Willfully disregarding the truth for a more convenient narrative is lieing.

[Dill]

(03-06-2020, 11:04 PM)hollodero Wrote: I thought about that. E.g. can expressing a hunch be a lie.
Then I thought that everything he said is not just unfettered by the truth, but also fueled by a clear ambition to diminish the virus' dangerousness.

Yeah, imho those are still lies alright. Willfully disregarding the truth for a more convenient narrative is lieing.

Well I have to take your point.

The "hunches" are not random, even if they are spontaneous and ungrounded.

It's possible he doesn't care that some of what he spouts is true or not,
just as he might not care if Biden really is implicated in corruption in Ukraine--the announcement is what's important. So the dishonesty is there--regardless of risk to the public.

I'd add, it's not just about how Trump lies, but about how legitimate sources of information have been de-legitimized in his supporters' eyes. His base will trust HIM over the NYT, the WHO, the CDC or whomever. 

A One-Two punch to public capacity for judgment.

[NATI BENGALS]

I never realized the prequel to Idiocracy would be a reality show I was living in.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-06-2020, 04:55 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: For shame, Nancy Pelosi.

https://kprcradio.iheart.com/featured/the-pursuit-of-happiness/content/2020-03-06-pelosi-actually-slowed-coronavirus-funding-so-dems-could-campaign-on-it/?fbclid=IwAR1yxVX9BWi-qQpLzdihfHM01smM_QsKQ2xfMTx-KEHa2KBeyOQt03SKsKA

Trump’s proposed budget cuts the CDC budget by 16%.

The White House asked that $1.25B in emergency funds be shifted from other programs that don’t involve building a wall to prepare for the Coronavirus. The House passed a bill for $8.3B. It probably took about a weekend for the Jaws of Life to extricate heads from inside asses.

When the Senate voted only our boy Rand Paul dissented. But, only after it already had enough votes to pass. Way to make a stand, Rand.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-06-2020, 06:55 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: How did he lie about the virus?  He declared a National Health Emergency before there were ever even any diagnosed cases in the US.  He immediately went to work and appointed his second in command to oversee the efforts, asked Congress for money shortly thereafter.  It's not his fault that Nancy decided to play partisan with American lives, and withhold the bill from reaching the House floor until after the primaries.

In primaries, Democrats run against Democrats and Republicans run against Republicans. So even if Pelosi delayed a vote like the Republican Representative claimed IOT fool the gullible into believing it, a Republican would still win a Republican primary against other Republicans because that’s how primaries work. And only registered Republicans can vote for Republicans in Republican primaries. So how is this brilliant move by Pelosi to blame Republicans with TV ads going to influence Republican voters voting for Republican candidates in Republican primaries for the benefit of Democrats not running against any of these Republicans? I mean would your vote for a Republican be swayed by by Pelosi’s propaganda when voting for a Republican candidate versus another Republican Candidate in a Republican primary in which only a Republican can claim victory?

Jesus Christ! THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINK!!!!!

No wonder Trump got less votes than Crooked Hillary!

And Trump’s Coronavirus numbers are based on a hunch. Which means he is just just making shit up as he goes along and some just eat that shit up.

[Belsnickel]

(03-06-2020, 04:55 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: For shame, Nancy Pelosi.

https://kprcradio.iheart.com/featured/the-pursuit-of-happiness/content/2020-03-06-pelosi-actually-slowed-coronavirus-funding-so-dems-could-campaign-on-it/?fbclid=IwAR1yxVX9BWi-qQpLzdihfHM01smM_QsKQ2xfMTx-KEHa2KBeyOQt03SKsKA

So, McCarthy makes this claim, nothing to really back it up, and the only media I can find it repeated are other, less well known, propaganda arms of the GOP. Including the radio show "Pursuit of Happiness" from which this article came. That show is just riddled with propaganda, conspiracy theories, and just outright falsehoods.

You should rethink where you get your information.

(03-06-2020, 05:36 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote:

Indeed. The irony of the right saying this about the left is thick. Like, glacial sheets at the high point of the ice age thick.

[Belsnickel]

(03-07-2020, 01:19 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Trump’s proposed budget cuts the CDC budget by 16%.

The White House asked that $1.25B in emergency funds be shifted from other programs that don’t involve building a wall to prepare for the Coronavirus. The House passed a bill for $8.3B. It probably took about a weekend for the Jaws of Life to extricate heads from inside asses.

When the Senate voted only our boy Rand Paul dissented. But, only after it already had enough votes to pass. Way to make a stand, Rand.

I had missed that post, earlier. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I like how all this was done without anyone saying "hey, what was the bill she withheld? What was the bill number?"

McCarthy needs to show those receipts or he is just being full of shit.