Coronavirus

[samhain]

(04-19-2020, 09:40 AM)GMDino Wrote: Wait, so all those guns for the second revolution...the take over of government and getting "our rights back"...none of that happened during a time of almost martial law?  Weird.

And that was WITHOUT the army getting involved.

Ya know it's almost like these guys are all talk and no action.   That having the guns to make them feel "safe" is really more about the image of having the guns than actually being organized enough, dare I say "well regulated" enough, to fight back. Thinking that if they had a big enough stockpile they could overthrow the big, bad government whenever they wanted to.  Instead they carried signs and then went home.

Strange. 

It's cosplay.  That's literally all.  I know many, many of these kinds of people.  I have friends that think exactly like them.  They all wear the same kinds of t-shirts and share the same moronic memes on social media.  

One of them, who I actually really like as a person got to talking about the 2A protests in VA a while back.  He was getting into how they need to storm the sheriff's department, blah, blah, blah, it's going to get ugly, blah, boogaloo, yackety schmackety.  

I asked him what exactly he thought would be gained from killing a member of law enforcement and to think about who the general public would side with in that scenario.  He said that people had to be willing to die to defend rights.

That's the funny part to me.  They think the gubmint has to come out with the martial law and machine guns to subdue that kind of revolt.  LOL.  The gubmint can seize property.  They can seize assets and accounts.  They can put you in a legal system that will remove your children from your life.  They can basically take everything you ever worked for and end you without firing a single bullet.  The people doing these sorts of things would piss their pants if they every really did enough to be taken seriously by the feds.  Go ahead and get yourself classified as a terrorist and see how it works out for you.  

[6andcounting]

(04-19-2020, 11:04 AM)GMDino Wrote: But isn't this "the moment they've been waiting for"?  Bundy is out running his mouth again...the right wing noise machine is speaking of "liberating" their states.

If not now, when?

The real answer is never but they don't want anyone to know that.

For most it will be never or maybe only in immediate self-defense. The problem is the police they love so much are the ones that would be physically stopping them from having rights. The ones enforcing are just as responsible as the person in an office with a pen that they hate so much. 

[6andcounting]

(04-19-2020, 01:57 PM)hollodero Wrote: That's just dumb. And somehow I read your posts as "yeah it's dumb, but...", and the time for focussing on said "but" is after the crisis passes.

Rights aren't being limited before or after the crisis. The limiting of individual rights is occurring as part of the government's response to the crisis. A total shutdown (if you can call it that) may be the legitimate response in this case, but how to we protect against it being used in cases where we have reason to believe it's not a legit response? 

[hollodero]

(04-19-2020, 02:36 PM)6andcounting Wrote: Rights aren't being limited before or after the crisis. The limiting of individual rights is occurring as part of the government's response to the crisis. A total shutdown (if you can call it that) may be the legitimate response in this case, but how to we protect against it being used in cases where we have reason to believe it's not a legit response? 

Well, again, first and foremost you don't protect against that by reflexively disobeying important measures to fight an epidemic. I think that's a sound starting point to answer that question.

Further I would still say you protect against future, possibly illegit responses by determining whether the response is legitimate or illegitimate first. There are educated people that deal with this kind of scenarios. Listen to them. And if there's an overreach, if the experts don't overwhelmingly support certain restrictions, then I can see protests and complaints and all that stuff. Usually public opinion is a rather effective tool (though I can see how this is a tougher concept for the US).

[*michaelsean*]

(04-18-2020, 03:38 PM)GMDino Wrote: Listen I know you have rights but if a cop pulls you over, treats you poorly, seems to be denying you your rights just do what they say and then it will all work it out in court.  Don't speak out or fight back...just do what you are told until the courts handle it.  Don't be fighting the law.

Wait...wrong thread.

Is there someone resisting the police?

[*michaelsean*]

(04-18-2020, 05:55 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You're expecting coherent logic from the group with "Don't Tread On Me!", "Come and take it!" and thin blue line stickers on their vehicles?

Yeah that doesn’t match up unless they start fighting the police. If they are fighting the police then the “gotcha with your own words” only work if conservatives come out and complain about someone who was resisting being beaten up or whatever. Has all that happened?

[*michaelsean*]

(04-18-2020, 08:54 PM)samhain Wrote: Yeah, that would be a lot like expecting coherent logic from the Teabag gang during the Obama era that somehow mysteriously disappeared upon the election of Trump.  Must have been because Trump and his Republican majority in both houses got spending under control and governed from an ultra-fiscally responsible playbook to balance the budget and debt, right?  Laughable liars these people are.

These people are the new Teabaggers.  They see an opening to take shots at politicians they dislike on issues they have an extremely poor understanding of.  They don't really care all that much about the virus or freedom.  They just want to get rid of Dem governors and spread false indignation among the usual video game army cosplayers.  I'd be shocked if the trogs weren't funded by some astroturf right wing/corporate groups  calling themselves local and "grassroots".  

I can't wait to see what lying, fake species of douche nozzle dolts pop up if Biden gets elected. They have zero credibility as participants in civil discourse.

Wow. When did liberals get so much disdain for protesting? Aren’t they protesting in Ohio and Utah as well?

[BmorePat87]

A cousin complained on Facebook that all of the issues were the fault of Congress and not Trump, suggesting he couldn't get things done because of impeachment. So I made a list of things he could have done:

1. Not cut funding to the CDC and NHI programs that combat pandemics

2. Not fire the pandemic response team

3. Restocked the emergency stockpile at any point in the last 3 years. He has repeatedly blamed Obama for it not being filled, but he has had 3 years to add to it.

4. Acknowledged in January that we would be facing a pandemic. Asked if there were worries of one, he said on 1/22:
“No, not at all. We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China, and we have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.”

5. Acknowledged in February that we would be facing a pandemic.
On 2/26 he said “We’re going to be pretty soon at only five people. And we could be at just one or two people over the next short period of time. So we’ve had very good luck.”

6. Acknowledged in the first half of March that would be facing a pandemic. On 3/3 he said about it spreading:
“No, I’m not concerned at all. No, I’m not. No, we’ve done a great job.”

He didn't acknowledge it was a problem until 3/17, after half the states began closing schools and large gatherings, claiming:
“No, I’ve always viewed it as very serious,”

7.Invoked the Defense Production Act in January to begin the manufacturing of masks, respirators, and other essential supplies. He has made repeated claims of invoking it with very little evidence of actually doing so. He has threatened some companies publicly that were already shifting their manufacturing.

8. Open the ACA marketplace for people to purchase healthcare.

9. Supported social distancing weeks before instead of saying it won't be needed by Easter.

10. Most importantly, developed a national plan to coordinate with state and local efforts rather than fighting with them.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-19-2020, 10:44 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: A cousin complained on Facebook that all of the issues were the fault of Congress and not Trump, suggesting he couldn't get things done because of impeachment. So I made a list of things he could have done:

1. Not cut funding to the CDC and NHI programs that combat pandemics

2. Not fire the pandemic response team

3. Restocked the emergency stockpile at any point in the last 3 years. He has repeatedly blamed Obama for it not being filled, but he has had 3 years to add to it.

4. Acknowledged in January that we would be facing a pandemic. Asked if there were worries of one, he said on 1/22:
“No, not at all. We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China, and we have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.”

5. Acknowledged in February that we would be facing a pandemic.
On 2/26 he said “We’re going to be pretty soon at only five people. And we could be at just one or two people over the next short period of time. So we’ve had very good luck.”

6. Acknowledged in the first half of March that would be facing a pandemic. On 3/3 he said about it spreading:
“No, I’m not concerned at all. No, I’m not. No, we’ve done a great job.”

He didn't acknowledge it was a problem until 3/17, after half the states began closing schools and large gatherings, claiming:
“No, I’ve always viewed it as very serious,”

7.Invoked the Defense Production Act in January to begin the manufacturing of masks, respirators, and other essential supplies. He has made repeated claims of invoking it with very little evidence of actually doing so. He has threatened some companies publicly that were already shifting their manufacturing.

8. Open the ACA marketplace for people to purchase healthcare.

9. Supported social distancing weeks before instead of saying it won't be needed by Easter.

10. Most importantly, developed a national plan to coordinate with state and local efforts rather than fighting with them.

On #4. Did Fauci say something similar around that time or no? I see people putting up quotes from him, but I have no idea what’s true.

[samhain]

(04-19-2020, 10:39 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Wow. When did liberals get so much disdain for protesting?  Aren’t they protesting in Ohio and Utah as well?

Idk, when did conservatives get so sensitive about civil liberties?  Last I checked they were still stroking out over a quarterback taking a knee. I know that Kaepernick triggered the hell out of every bootlicker alive, but what he did had zero bearing on anyone's rights or personal health. The current protestors are being warned about spreading a disease that's poorly understood and capable of killing a segment of the population. To me, that's a hell of a lot worse than the things the right has gone completely apeshit over in the last few years.

An aside: the leader of Kentucky United, the big 2A group here in Kentucky made a statement today. He said that as far as he could tell the actions taken by the governor were within the boundaries of the Constitution and what the state allows in cases of emergency. When guys that literally head anti gun control groups say that the governor isn't overstepping, then just maybe the protestors are plain morons that are ignorant of how the law works.

[samhain]

(04-19-2020, 10:44 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: A cousin complained on Facebook that all of the issues were the fault of Congress and not Trump, suggesting he couldn't get things done because of impeachment. So I made a list of things he could have done:

1. Not cut funding to the CDC and NHI programs that combat pandemics

2. Not fire the pandemic response team

3. Restocked the emergency stockpile at any point in the last 3 years. He has repeatedly blamed Obama for it not being filled, but he has had 3 years to add to it.

4. Acknowledged in January that we would be facing a pandemic. Asked if there were worries of one, he said on 1/22:
“No, not at all. We have it totally under control. It’s one person coming in from China, and we have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.”

5. Acknowledged in February that we would be facing a pandemic.
On 2/26 he said “We’re going to be pretty soon at only five people. And we could be at just one or two people over the next short period of time. So we’ve had very good luck.”

6. Acknowledged in the first half of March that would be facing a pandemic. On 3/3 he said about it spreading:
“No, I’m not concerned at all. No, I’m not. No, we’ve done a great job.”

He didn't acknowledge it was a problem until 3/17, after half the states began closing schools and large gatherings, claiming:
“No, I’ve always viewed it as very serious,”

7.Invoked the Defense Production Act in January to begin the manufacturing of masks, respirators, and other essential supplies. He has made repeated claims of invoking it with very little evidence of actually doing so. He has threatened some companies publicly that were already shifting their manufacturing.

8. Open the ACA marketplace for people to purchase healthcare.

9. Supported social distancing weeks before instead of saying it won't be needed by Easter.

10. Most importantly, developed a national plan to coordinate with state and local efforts rather than fighting with them.

I personally don't care what tact he chooses.  I just wish he'd show a steady hand in dealing with it.  He goes from one end to the other within days.  That scares the shit out of people.  First it's a hoax, then it's going to be one of the most awful weeks in American history.  Then he's leaving it up to governors.  Then he's the ultimate authority.  Then back to governors.  Then tweets attacking governors and supporting the mouth-foaming protesters (but only in states with Dem governors).  Open up on Easter.  Open in May.  Everything's great.  It's a tragic event.  

He's an alleged leader that has no idea or plan for what's happening.  He's scared to death and it shows.  No president before him would be shown bickering with governors during a national emergency, but there he is going full dumbass with Cuomo and Whitmer.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(04-19-2020, 10:39 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Wow. When did liberals get so much disdain for protesting? Aren’t they protesting in Ohio and Utah as well?

I think about the same time some conservatives stopped pretending to care for law and order or the sanctity of life.

[BmorePat87]

(04-19-2020, 11:44 PM)michaelsean Wrote: On #4. Did Fauci say something similar around that time or no? I see people putting up quotes from him, but I have no idea what’s true.

Not sure. Maybe this?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/fauci-nothing-to-worry-about/

People may be twisting what he said to suggest there was nothing to worry about when all he said was at the time (late Feb) people didn’t need to change their habits (which is true).

[BmorePat87]

(04-20-2020, 12:52 AM)samhain Wrote: I personally don't care what tact he chooses.  I just wish he'd show a steady hand in dealing with it.  He goes from one end to the other within days.  That scares the shit out of people.  First it's a hoax, then it's going to be one of the most awful weeks in American history.  Then he's leaving it up to governors.  Then he's the ultimate authority.  Then back to governors.  Then tweets attacking governors and supporting the mouth-foaming protesters (but only in states with Dem governors).  Open up on Easter.  Open in May.  Everything's great.  It's a tragic event.  

He's an alleged leader that has no idea or plan for what's happening.  He's scared to death and it shows.  No president before him would be shown bickering with governors during a national emergency, but there he is going full dumbass with Cuomo and Whitmer.  

He was known well before his dim-witted presidency to hate making plans and going off his gut. That’s why his airline and casinos failed. That’s why many of his businesses failed. He’s always been good at bullying and marketing though. If he can counter sue someone until their broke in order to avoid paying contractors, he would. He tricked people into believing he was more successful than he was and was able to make a show out of it, which, along with his father dying, helped him recover from his collapse in the 90s.

Now he’s expected to make plans and stick with it, but all he wants to do is respond to polls, but he isn’t sure which route to go to improve his falling numbers

[hollodero]

(04-19-2020, 10:39 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Wow. When did liberals get so much disdain for protesting?

I don't quite know why you asked that question, but this really is not about political affiliation initially. Whoever goes out protesting in a time where a virus is spreading just acts irresponsible and dumb. Liberals and conservatives alike.

And I would guess any group can be irresponsible and dumb, because idiots are everywhere. I take it in these cases of particularly dumb behaviour it's mainly Trump fans though protesting a democrat governor because that's never wrong, and really very smart Trump cheers them on. Disdain seems like the natural reaction for willfully endangering other people and the success of the countermeasures.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-20-2020, 06:36 AM)hollodero Wrote: I don't quite know why you asked that question, but this really is not about political affiliation initially. Whoever goes out protesting in a time where a virus is spreading just acts irresponsible and dumb. Liberals and conservatives alike.

And I would guess any group can be irresponsible and dumb, because idiots are everywhere. I take it in these cases of particularly dumb behaviour it's mainly Trump fans though protesting a democrat governor because that's never wrong, and really very smart Trump cheers them on. Disdain seems like the natural reaction for willfully endangering other people and the success of the countermeasures.

Gotta take the whole post into account. Including the homophobic slur.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-20-2020, 01:47 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I think about the same time some conservatives stopped pretending to care for law and order or the sanctity of life.

They finally had time off to go to a protest.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(04-20-2020, 07:35 AM)michaelsean Wrote: They finally had time off to go to a protest.

Shouldn’t they be creating minimum wage, stay at home jobs without healthcare that still somehow manage to wreck the environment instead of protesting stay away from your vacation home orders like a bunch of hippies (or worse, Black Lives Matter protestors)?

[hollodero]

(04-20-2020, 07:34 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Gotta take the whole post into account. Including the homophobic slur.

You mean "teabaggers"? OK. I would use different words, but have a hard time getting too indignant about that.

Since you asked "since when have liberals disdain for protests", I deem it an acceptable answer to state that everyone should feel disdain for this particular display of silliness. And the post got it basically right. These people do not care about reason or their community, they care about Trumptrumptrump and liberal governors and pure tribalism. It is just stupid. The "slur" doesn't change that.

[*michaelsean*]

(04-20-2020, 08:11 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Shouldn’t they be creating minimum wage, stay at home jobs without healthcare that still somehow manage to wreck the environment instead of protesting stay away from your vacation home orders like a bunch of hippies (or worse, Black Lives Matter protestors)?

Everybody thinks it’s so easy to create a $10 job that can choke out a city. Give us a little time.