Denmark bans face veil: Incompatible with Danish values

[Benton]

(02-07-2018, 11:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No it isn't.  Christians are allowed to wear crosses, or WWJD bracelets, or religious themed t-shirts, or whatever they want.  

There have been no laws against what Christians can wear in public.

Maybe not the best example.

Some idiots try to use the Bible to legitimize discrimination against women, gays, black people, etc. If you started putting that on a shirt, you'd get pushback.

Besides, this isn't really about memorabilia that promotes a religion, it's about a custom that promotes one sex being superior to the other. That's existed in Christianity, too, but there's been considerable effort to change that. 

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2018, 12:11 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sure, and I can find a woman whose husband routinely beats her who will tell you what a great husband and father the guy is.  You should know this, you've defended numerous wife beaters throughout your career I'm sure.  You're quite the feminist, great job!

Don't know why I provided a link.  I should have known you would not read it.

Guess you figured no need to since no Muslim woman is capable of thinking for herself.

[fredtoast]

(02-07-2018, 11:56 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I have to give the Hasidim this, at least the horribly uncomfortable clothing is a shared concept between men and women.  I've seen the guys walking to temple in this exact outfit in 100 degree weather.  The women were five steps behind them, but at least their clothing was equally restrictive!

So who beat and intimidated these men to force them to wear these type of clothes?

Since they are clearly unable to think for themselves we should make a law against wearing stupid hats.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I can understand requiring no veil when driving and to get a drivers license but just walking around town, doing a little shopping or going to a park I do have a problem with requiring no veil.

EDIT: In a free society, if a woman wants to wear a veil to hide her face, she must be allowed to wear it except for certain situations like driving a vehicle. I am against forcing a woman wearing a veil if she don't want to, but if she does want to, no matter the reason given, she should be allowed to wear it.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-08-2018, 01:43 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Don't know why I provided a link.  I should have known you would not read it.

Guess you figured no need to since no Muslim woman is capable of thinking for herself.

Yeah, that's what happened.  The domestic violence victim can think for herself too, right Fred?  Why can't she drop the charges?  If you choose to play ignorant I'll be happy to explain what this means to the people not familiar with the criminal justice system.

(02-08-2018, 01:46 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So who beat and intimidated these men to force them to wear these type of clothes?

Since they are clearly unable to think for themselves we should make a law against wearing stupid hats.

Point flying over head.  Well done, you sad little man.

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2018, 01:59 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yeah, that's what happened.  The domestic violence victim can think for herself too, right Fred?  Why can't she drop the charges?  If you choose to play ignorant I'll be happy to explain what this means to the people not familiar with the criminal justice system.

Why do you keep obsessing over domestic violence victims?

I posted a link to an article from a Muslim woman who wears the hijab for reasons that clearly have NOTHING to do with her being intimidated by a man.  If you would just read it you would understand how silly your comparison sounds.

Would you really be in favor of a law that said if a woman was the victim of physical abuse she could be charged with a crime if she ever had contact with the man again?

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2018, 01:59 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Point flying over head.  Well done, you sad little man.

I can see that I flew the point over your head, but I don't consider that a job "well done".  

I would much rather you get the point that these men are wearing certain items of clothing because it is part of their religion just like some Muslim women chose to wear hijab because it is part of their religion.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-08-2018, 02:58 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Why do you keep obsessing over domestic violence victims?

Because of the obvious similarities between them and victims of religious oppression?  Do you really deal with victims of domestic violence?  I ask because someone who did for a living what you claim would never need to ask the question you just did.

Quote:I posted a link to an article from a Muslim woman who wears the hijab for reasons that clearly have NOTHING to do with her being intimidated by a man.  If you would just read it you would understand how silly your comparison sounds.

 i read it and gave it as much credence as that of the standard female DV victim.  Given your extensive experience with female domestic violence victims you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Quote:Would you really be in favor of a law that said if a woman was the victim of physical abuse she could be charged with a crime if she ever had contact with the man again?

Sure Fredliar, that's what I insinuated.   Keep dissembling while you phostwhore.  I look forward to your perma ban, perma liar.  

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2018, 03:08 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Because of the obvious similarities between them and victims of religious oppression?

Except I poisted a link to a story that proves that some Muslim women wear the hijab for reasons that have nothing to do with religious oppression.

(02-08-2018, 03:08 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote:  i read it and gave it as much credence as that of the standard female DV victim.  Given your extensive experience with female domestic violence victims you know exactly what I'm talking about.

I have no idea what you are talking about.  I do have extensive experince with victims of domestic violence.  That is why I am able to read the story I linked and see that her decision had nothing to do with religious oppression.

I have no doubt that you gave her opinion no credence, but that was based on a sterotype lodged in your head and had nothing to do with what she actually said.  That is the difference between you and me.  I don't automatically judge a person on a stereotype.  I actually listen to what they have to say and judge them on an individual basis.  Here is the quote that convinced me that the author was not a victim of religios oppression.


"Wearing the hijab was not something I deliberately set out to do. It was something I unexpectedly stumbled upon as a twentysomething undergraduate, reading feminist literature and researching stories of women's lives in the sex industry"


You, on the other hand, can not provide a single quote from the story that would support your theory that not one single Muslim woman in the world is capable of thinking for herself and making a decision to wear hijab.  You don't think you have to read or listen to anything they say because you already know more than everyone of them.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-08-2018, 03:30 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Except I poisted a link to a story that proves that some Muslim women wear the hijab for reasons that have nothing to do with religious oppression.

Cool, one woman's apocryphal story is true for all women then? 

Quote:I have no idea what you are talking about.

Clearly.

 

Quote: I do have extensive experince with victims of domestic violence.  That is why I am able to read the story I linked and see that her decision had nothing to do with religious oppression.

You've already proven yourself a garbage lawyer, I guess one more piece of evidence in this regard is no big deal.

Quote:I have no doubt that you gave her opinion no credence, but that was based on a sterotype lodged in your head and had nothing to do with what she actually said.  That is the difference between you and me.  I don't automatically judge a person on a stereotype.

 
Sure, and every DV victim who says her suspect is a good guy is an equally credible witness.  As someone who advocates for criminals I expect no less than a full throated defense of women beaters.

Quote:I actually listen to what they have to say and judge them on an individual basis.  Here is the quote that convinced me that the author was not a victim of religios oppression.

No, you don't.  You twist their statements to paint your client in the most favorable light.

Quote:"Wearing the hijab was not something I deliberately set out to do. It was something I unexpectedly stumbled upon as a twentysomething undergraduate, reading feminist literature and researching stories of women's lives in the sex industry"

Cool.  When this statement disproves any of my assertions get back to me me.  You're quite the feminist!

Quote:You, on the other hand, can not provide a single quote from the story that would support your theory that not one single Muslim woman in the world is capable of thinking for herself and making a decision to wear hijab.  You don't think you have to read or listen to anything they say because you already know more than everyone of them.

STFU with this crap.  Because I can't provide an inane apocryphal story to buttress my assertion I am wrong?  I need point out nothing more than the experience of every woman who comes of age in Saudi Arabia or any other such country.  If you feel comfortable advocating for the continued subjugation of women I have no ameliorating words for you.   

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2018, 03:44 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: STFU with this crap.  Because I can't provide an inane apocryphal story to buttress my assertion I am wrong?

No.  You are wrong because you claim to speak for every single Muslim woman on earth.  And the story I cited proves that you don't.

BTW do you know the definition of "inane" and "apocryphal"?  Because the story I cited was neither.

(02-08-2018, 03:44 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I need point out nothing more than the experience of every woman who comes of age in Saudi Arabia or any other such country. 

Since we are talking about laws in the United States, what about the millions of Muslim women coming of age here?

[BmorePat87]

(02-07-2018, 11:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Wow, another non-Muslim man who knows more about what Muslim women think than a Muslim woman.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/may/28/hijab-society-women-religious-political

Maybe you should propose a law that makes it illegal for Muslim women to make their own decisions since they are unable to think for themselves.

(02-08-2018, 12:11 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sure, and I can find a woman whose husband routinely beats her who will tell you what a great husband and father the guy is.  You should know this, you've defended numerous wife beaters throughout your career I'm sure.  You're quite the feminist, great job!

There are both women who are forced to wear it and women who want to wear it for personal reasons. I don't know if continuing this line of back and forth is productive, but we could just focus on the legal component of whether or not to ban it in the US.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(02-07-2018, 09:45 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Yes I would.   But it has zero to do with religion.    We are an open face society in the west and there is no reason to not be able to see everyone’s face.   They can still dress conservatively to maintain their appearance.  

It’s about societal standards and no one should be compelled to dress like a ghost.   When we visit a Muslim country my wife wears a veil and when they are in the West they don’t cover their face.

Our "societal standards" should never trump civil rights and the freedom of religion. 

The fact that the people arguing that Islamic tradition should be banned are the same people that complained that a Christian bakery couldn't discriminate against gay people is mind-boggling. Can we get just a little bit of consistency in here? At least admit that it's a Christian superiority thing, rather than a religious freedom thing.

(02-07-2018, 11:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No woman should be forced to wear a veil or burqua.

But at the same time there should never be a law against it.  It is the total opposit of the freedom our country stands for.

Of course not. We're fooling ourselves if we think that the people who are for this suddenly care about women's rights though. Just look at the people arguing for this. Are these people typically part of the women's rights crowd, or the anti-islam crowd?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-08-2018, 04:42 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  You are wrong because you claim to speak for every single Muslim woman on earth.  And the story I cited proves that you don't.

BTW do you know the definition of "inane" and "apocryphal"?  Because the story I cited was neither.

I never made that claim and you know I never made that claim.  This is a typical Fred post, in which you argue against a point the other person never even made.  The claim I did make is that the burqa and hijab are symptomatic of the oppressive culture towards women that is extremely prevalent in islam and the countries that are majority muslim.  Considering the reams of evidence of this oppressive culture I'm not surprised your only counter is a single woman who claims she finds her hijab "liberating".  

Quote:Since we are talking about laws in the United States, what about the millions of Muslim women coming of age here?

Actually, we're talking about a law in Denmark, do try to keep up.

(02-08-2018, 11:20 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: There are both women who are forced to wear it and women who want to wear it for personal reasons. I don't know if continuing this line of back and forth is productive, but we could just focus on the legal component of whether or not to ban it in the US.

The only person advocating for a ban in the US is one of our resident bigots.  No such law would fly here as it would be unconstitutional.  

(02-08-2018, 12:14 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: Our "societal standards" should never trump civil rights and the freedom of religion. 

The fact that the people arguing that Islamic tradition should be banned are the same people that complained that a Christian bakery couldn't discriminate against gay people is mind-boggling. Can we get just a little bit of consistency in here? At least admit that it's a Christian superiority thing, rather than a religious freedom thing.

I think you meant to type "person" instead of "people" here.  If not then you should have.  Sunset and myself are making the, fact based, argument that the burqa is symptomatic of the misogyny that is rampant among a vast number of muslims.

Quote:Of course not. We're fooling ourselves if we think that the people who are for this suddenly care about women's rights though. Just look at the people arguing for this. Are these people typically part of the women's rights crowd, or the anti-islam crowd?

One person is arguing for this, one.  Person, not people.

[StLucieBengal]

(02-08-2018, 12:14 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: Our "societal standards" should never trump civil rights and the freedom of religion. 

The fact that the people arguing that Islamic tradition should be banned are the same people that complained that a Christian bakery couldn't discriminate against gay people is mind-boggling. Can we get just a little bit of consistency in here? At least admit that it's a Christian superiority thing, rather than a religious freedom thing.


Of course not. We're fooling ourselves if we think that the people who are for this suddenly care about women's rights though. Just look at the people arguing for this. Are these people typically part of the women's rights crowd, or the anti-islam crowd?

What about the rights of those women who are forced to wear the veil? Ofc they will say they want to wear a mask all the time...... they will get a beating from their husband or father at home if they say anything different. Just as others have stated using the example of abused women.

No one wears this ridiculous outfit in the West unless they are forced.

[GMDino]

(02-08-2018, 02:11 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: What about the rights of those women who are forced to wear the veil?   Ofc they will say they want to wear a mask all the time......  they will get a beating from their husband or father at home if they say anything different.   Just as others have stated using the example of abused women.  

No one wears this ridiculous outfit in the West unless they are forced.

Hyperbole.

What about women who are told they can't play certain sports? Women who are told they should not wear pants?

[StLucieBengal]

(02-08-2018, 02:36 PM)GMDino Wrote: Hyperbole.

What about women who are told they can't play certain sports? Women who are told they should not wear pants?

You must be referring to sports for men only. And everyone knows women look better in a dress or skirt. Unless you like those women who are too thick for most.

But what does this have to do with protecting the women who are forced to wear this covering?

[GMDino]

(02-08-2018, 02:38 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: You must be referring to sports for men only.  And everyone knows women look better in a dress or skirt.   Unless you like those women who are too thick for most.  

But what does this have to do with protecting the women who are forced to wear this covering?

Men only?  Either you are defending women's rights by decrying the burka or you're not.

And I'm not talking about what makes your average chauvinist look long and hard at a female. I'm talking about women who are not allowed to wear pants either at work or due to their religion.

[BmorePat87]

(02-08-2018, 02:38 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: You must be referring to sports for men only.  And everyone knows women look better in a dress or skirt.   Unless you like those women who are too thick for most.  

But what does this have to do with protecting the women who are forced to wear this covering?

Apparently you've never heard of yoga pants. 

[*bfine32*]

I feel the woman should be able to wear whatever she desires as long as it is not vulgar. WTS, understand that not every woman you see wearing one of these are doing it by choice.