Do you believe; and why?

[Lucidus]

Whenever I discuss topics of religious nature with my friends or colleagues that are of a theistic persuasion, I will often ask why they believe what they believe. Inevitably, I'm met with three very common response on most occasions:

It's a matter of faith.
I had an experience that caused me to believe.
It's the religion I was taught and raised in.

There are a myriad of other reason of course, but these I find to be overwhelmingly the most common. I find all three are curious in that they seem to forgo reasoned evaluation and logical conclusion. I've always been rather perplexed as to why people believe things without proper evidence, or at the very least, justified reasoning.

If there are those here who fall into one of more of those three common reasons for believing, I would be interested in discussing the process that you currently use to justify continued belief. If you have other reasons for believing, I'm open to having an engaging, respectful discussion about the as well.

I rather enjoy delving into to why people believe the things they do, and in the case of religion, what critical thinking processes are utilized to formulate and / or justify said belief.

[fredtoast]

People who believe in a higher power are usually happier. I think that has a lot to do with it. It just feels good, so why not.

Personally I was raised in a very strict Southern Baptist home. Everyone I knew believed. It never occurred to me not to believe. But when I was in college I started to have some doubts. When I decided to read the Bible straight through I realized what a racist horror show the Old Testament was. that pretty much ended it for me.

However I was lucky that my parents were not the hypocritical, or self righteous, or overly-judgmental Christians who can give that faith a bad name. They were just wonderful loving people. My mother is still alive, and I would never tell her I lost my faith, but she does not do or say things that upset me.

[CJD]

My main reasoning behind my belief is the Law of Conservation of Mass. If mass cannot be created or destroyed, then where did the universe come from? Logic would tell me that the world must have been created by a being or phenomenon not of this universe.

Now, I don't put a whole lot of stake in my faith, as I personally have major issues with the establishment of Religion (as in, the people who run Religious organizations), as I feel they are often corrupt or abusive in their use of faith and the control it has over a large portion of people. So I don't know if I could have a full debate on the subject of my faith beyond that one law of physics.

And, as for what religion I associate myself with, it is 99% what I was raised believing in. Again, I don't put too much stake in my association with Christianity outside of my accepted belief that it is a based on a book of stories that may or may not have happened that are meant to teach moral lessons to a species that, without guidance and a social structure with certain expectations, are prone to self preservation and survival of the fittest over any kind of healthy societal environment.

[Lucidus]

(05-08-2019, 03:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: People who believe in a higher power are usually happier.  I think that has a lot to do with it.  It just feels good, so why not.

Personally I was raised in a very strict Southern Baptist home.  Everyone I knew believed.  It never occurred to me not to believe.  But when I was in college I started to have some doubts.  When I decided to read the Bible straight through I realized what a racist horror show the Old Testament was.  that pretty much ended it for me.

However I was lucky that my parents were not the hypocritical, or self righteous, or overly-judgmental Christians who can give that faith a bad name.  They were just wonderful loving people.  My mother is still alive, and I would never tell her I lost my faith, but she does not do or say things that upset me.

That is another common reason, "it feels good, so why not." I would offer that many things feel good, but is belief or practice in such things reasonable or justified? It may make one feel good to believe that their dead relative has inhabited the body of the pet, but is it logical to hold such a belief, regardless of how comforting it may be? I know that it isn't your position, just offering the question for discussion.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-08-2019, 03:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: People who believe in a higher power are usually happier. I think that has a lot to do with it. It just feels good, so why not.

Personally I was raised in a very strict Southern Baptist home. Everyone I knew believed. It never occurred to me not to believe. But when I was in college I started to have some doubts. When I decided to read the Bible straight through I realized what a racist horror show the Old Testament was. that pretty much ended it for me.

However I was lucky that my parents were not the hypocritical, or self righteous, or overly-judgmental Christians who can give that faith a bad name. They were just wonderful loving people. My mother is still alive, and I would never tell her I lost my faith, but she does not do or say things that upset me.

Several years ago, my mom told me my oldest daughter is a lesbian which I didn't know and it didn't matter to me anyway. But, it bothered her. I asked why and she answered the Bible.

"Mom, I'm an atheist."

"Well, this is a helluva ***** Christmas."

LOL

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2019, 03:09 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: My main reasoning behind my belief is the Law of Conservation of Mass. If mass cannot be created or destroyed, then where did the universe come from? Logic would tell me that the world must have been created by a being or phenomenon not of this universe.

There is no logic to that argument.  The universe does not need a creator because it has always existed.  The fact that our human brains cannot process that does not prove there is a God.

If you can believe in a god with no beginning then you should be able to believe in a universe with no beginning.

[CJD]

(05-08-2019, 03:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There is no logic to that argument.  The universe does not need a creator because it has always existed.  The facts that our human brains cannot process that does not prove there is a God.

If you can believe in a god with no beginning then you should be able to believe in a universe with no beginning.

*shrug*


There's no logic to most arguments about religion.

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2019, 03:23 PM)Lucidus Wrote: That is another common reason, "it feels good, so why not." I would offer that many things feel good, but is belief or practice in such things reasonable or justified?

Making your life more enjoyable seems like a reasonable justification to me.

And that is fine by me as long as their beliefs don't start effecting the lives of other people.  That is where the conflict arises.

[hollodero]

(05-08-2019, 03:09 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: My main reasoning behind my belief is the Law of Conservation of Mass. If mass cannot be created or destroyed, then where did the universe come from?

Not that it contributes anything substantial, but mass can be "destroyed". The sun does it, emitting energy in the process. It also can be created out of energy.

There are theories the universe is merely a quantum fluctuation created out of nothing, much like positrons and electrons can be created out of "nothing". This probably isn't true - but the fact that we can't quite grasp the beginning of the universe to me doesn't necessarily mean it was a god creating it. This just shifts the problem to "...and if it was a god, how was god created?"

[Lucidus]

(05-08-2019, 03:09 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: My main reasoning behind my belief is the Law of Conservation of Mass. If mass cannot be created or destroyed, then where did the universe come from? Logic would tell me that the world must have been created by a being or phenomenon not of this universe.

Now, I don't put a whole lot of stake in my faith, as I personally have major issues with the establishment of Religion (as in, the people who run Religious organizations), as I feel they are often corrupt or abusive in their use of faith and the control it has over a large portion of people. So I don't know if I could have a full debate on the subject of my faith beyond that one law of physics.

And, as for what religion I associate myself with, it is 99% what I was raised believing in. Again, I don't put too much stake in my association with Christianity outside of my accepted belief that it is a based on a book of stories that may or may not have happened that are meant to teach moral lessons to a species that, without guidance and a social structure with certain expectations, are prone to self preservation and survival of the fittest over any kind of healthy societal environment.

Thank you for the response. 

When we ask the question, "where did the universe come from" -- could it not be the case that the most reasonable answer, at least at this point tin time, be that we don't know. We have some very good naturalistic models -- with the Big Bang being the most prominent -- but in truth, none of us knows for sure. Perhaps our universe has always been. Perhaps it's a result of another universe or multi-verse. There are many ideas, explanations and theories, but in truth, the most honest seems to still be "we simply do not know." 

As to the bold, it would seem to me that we are still extremely prone to that, even with religious guidance. I think it could be fairly argued that religious doctrine has even contributed and escalated it in far too many situations.

[CJD]

(05-08-2019, 03:36 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Thank you for the response. 

When we ask the question, "where did the universe come from" -- could it not be the case that the most reasonable answer, at least at this point tin time, be that we don't know. We have some very good naturalistic models -- with the Big Bang being the most prominent -- but in truth, none of us knows for sure. Perhaps our universe has always been. Perhaps it's a result of another universe or multi-verse. There are many ideas, explanations and theories, but in truth, the most honest seems to still be "we simply do not know." 

As to the bold, it would seem to me that we are still extremely prone to that, even with religious guidance. I think it could be fairly argued that religious doctrine has even contributed and escalated it in far too many situations.

Well, I think the bolded statement's biggest impact was back before the scientific age. When human society was in its infancy, and consequences for actions were the main driving force for how humans behaved, I would assume astral consequences were a great way to control people, or at the very least have them act civilly. I'm not here to say that religion as 100% moral, as I said previously. Religion has been used for quite a few horrible things, after all.

As for the whole where did the universe come from thing, I am not a scientist and I don't claim to be one. That was just the justification that I used as I was growing up. Like I said, I don't put too much stock in it, as religion is almost entirely based on faith, which is not something that is justifiable.

[CJD]

(05-08-2019, 03:36 PM)hollodero Wrote: Not that it contributes anything substantial, but mass can be "destroyed". The sun does it, emitting energy in the process. It also can be created out of energy.

There are theories the universe is merely a quantum fluctuation created out of nothing, much like positrons and electrons can be created out of "nothing". This probably isn't true - but the fact that we can't quite grasp the beginning of the universe to me doesn't necessarily mean it was a god creating it. This just shifts the problem to "...and if it was a god, how was god created?"

Well, Einstein covered all that with E=mc^2

I think they even combined the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy into a Law of equilibrium for that very reason.

And, as far as who created God, I would say that God merely transcends the material universe. Like I said, I don't want to try and defend that logic, as it was just my justification as I was growing up. But if mass cannot be created by any function of this universe, then it must have been created by a higher power is about as good a basis as you can make for the existence of a God. Not to say that it's a logical or defensible basis.

[Lucidus]

(05-08-2019, 03:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Making your life more enjoyable seems like a reasonable justification to me.

And that is fine by me as long as their beliefs don't start effecting the lives of other people.  That is where the conflict arises.

Doing something simply because it feels good is a justification, no doubt. However, I think the reasonableness of it can be debated. 

In the example I provided, the person could easily "justify" their belief because it comforted them. The problem is that the belief they hold is not grounded in known reality. They may be happy, but have opened themselves up to believing all sorts of things that aren't logical.

[CKwi88]

What exactly are you asking if we believe in? God? Religion? Divinity? A higher power?

Just for clarification.

[CJD]

(05-08-2019, 03:49 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Doing something simply because it feels good is a justification, no doubt. However, I think the reasonableness of it can be debated. 

In the example I provided, the person could easily "justify" their belief because it comforted them. The problem is that the belief they hold is not grounded in known reality. They may be happy, but have opened themselves up to believing all sorts of things that aren't logical.

Not to get too philosophical, but aren't we all living in our own personal delusions? haha.

I think many people trick themselves into thinking that humans are, by nature, logical creatures.

After all. We wouldn't believe something if we didn't have any logic behind it, right?

There's a reason every single person in the world is capable of justifying their beliefs, whether that be to themselves or to others around them.

[Dill]

(05-08-2019, 02:42 PM)Lucidus Wrote: It's a matter of faith.
I had an experience that caused me to believe.
It's the religion I was taught and raised in.

There are a myriad of other reason of course, but these I find to be overwhelmingly the most common.
I find all three are curious in that they seem to forgo reasoned evaluation and logical conclusion. I've always been rather perplexed as to why people believe things without proper evidence, or at the very least, justified reasoning.

LOL there is a clue in there, if you can tease it out.

[Lucidus]

(05-08-2019, 03:58 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: What exactly are you asking if we believe in? God? Religion? Divinity? A higher power?

Just for clarification.

I apologize, I should have been more specific. Yes, a higher power in general, and a creative deity more specifically.

[Dill]

(05-08-2019, 03:36 PM)hollodero Wrote: Not that it contributes anything substantial, but mass can be "destroyed". The sun does it, emitting energy in the process. It also can be created out of energy.

There are theories the universe is merely a quantum fluctuation created out of nothing, much like positrons and electrons can be created out of "nothing". This probably isn't true - but the fact that we can't quite grasp the beginning of the universe to me doesn't necessarily mean it was a god creating it. This just shifts the problem to "...and if it was a god, how was god created?"

Er, the sun isn't just "emitting," energy; it is converting mass TO energy, right? Some of which is converted back to biomass on earth, for example. Water which evaporates isn't "destroyed." 

regarding your second point, I find the Greek (pre-Socratic) assumption that something has always existed, rather than nothing, easier to accept.  It is just conceptually easier to suppose matter always existed than that it had to be created. The latter seems more like something humans need for their own conceptual reality to make sense.

[Lucidus]

(05-08-2019, 03:59 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Not to get too philosophical, but aren't we all living in our own personal delusions? haha.

I think many people trick themselves into thinking that humans are, by nature, logical creatures.

After all. We wouldn't believe something if we didn't have any logic behind it, right?

There's a reason every single person in the world is capable of justifying their beliefs, whether that be to themselves or to others around them.

Indeed, one can justify or rationalize anything to themselves using nothing more than desire, need and comfort to do so. The problem comes into play when those justifications and rationalizations are met with a request for evidence that isn't purely anecdotal or internal. 

That is where the rubber fails to meet the road, so to speak. 

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2019, 03:49 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Doing something simply because it feels good is a justification, no doubt. However, I think the reasonableness of it can be debated. 

In the example I provided, the person could easily "justify" their belief because it comforted them. The problem is that the belief they hold is not grounded in known reality. They may be happy, but have opened themselves up to believing all sorts of things that aren't logical.

Then we move the debate to the meaning or point of life.  Would you rather live a happy life or a logical life?  What is the point of being right if you would be happier being wrong?