Do you believe; and why?

[Lucidus]

(05-14-2019, 10:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Let me answer the first question: You don't.

As to the rest:


I'm unsure where you've seen those requirements before, but salvation requires none of those things. All that is required is to believe that Christ is the savior and confess it publicly. The rest is up to you. 

You don't know if you want salvation or not?

So, one can be granted eternal salvation through the grace of Christ and still choose to:

not be subservient
question God's authority
boast of worthiness
refuse to worship him
not ask for forgiveness

???

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-14-2019, 06:46 PM)Lucidus Wrote: As the "creator" - he is the author and definer of what is good and evil.
He created Adam and Eve without the any knowledge of good and evil.
He endows them with both curious minds and the freedom to make choices.
He tells them they must not partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Then, he either places - or allows - temptation [the serpent] to persuade Eve to make a "wrong" choice.
He then punishes Adam and Eve [and their entire lineage] for:

    Engaging the curious impulses that he created them with,
    which caused them to exercise the free will he endowed them with,
    that led to making the very decision they he knew they would make.

After all, he is omniscient. He knew they would fail his "test" - however, he created them anyway, knowing full well that he would be punishing a creation for utilizing the very impulses and curiosities that he created them with, and to which they [Adam and Eve] had no realistic comprehension of -- because he would not allow said comprehension. 

I'm sorry, but the story of Adam and Eve - in my opinion - portrays God as rather sadistic and extremely capricious. I see nothing in that story which leads me to believe that he "cared" for his creation or that he intended anything more than confusion and suffering for them.

Just because Adam and Eve (well actually all human beings for that matter) are confused and suffer because God created us and allows everything to happen doesn't mean he doesn't care about us. How can you make that conclusion? The fact that God even offers us a way out means he cares. Just because God knew what would happen doesn't mean that he can't care within the realm of already knowing. Even though God knew it would happen he still had mercy on them (and all of us) to the point that he wants us to actually come back to him. A non-caring being would not do that. A non-caring being would have obliterated them immediately or offered them no salvation whatsoever.

Quote:If God truly did not want Adam and Eve to have knowledge of good and evil, it seems either curious that he [purposely] would place among them the very source of the knowledge he was forbidding. Furthermore, he gave them the freedom to choose said knowledge. He then goes even farther and allows/provides temptation to an infantile and ignorant creation -- which seems to all but ensure only one possible outcome. 

It seems to me that you're trying to twist God's intentions. You're doing this roundabout thing of "The bible would like you to think that God didn't want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, but he actually did because he put it right there in the garden with them. Therefore he is evil".
But that's not true. God didn't want them to eat the fruit. Just because he put the tree there doesn't mean he had some real evil intention of having them eat the fruit so that he could punish them. Again, God's intention was for us to live in peace with him, not to disobey him.

Quote:How did Satan get access to the garden?
How was Satan allowed to test Job?
How many genocides did Satan oversee?
How many virgins did Satan say to keep for yourself during a time of war?
How many times is Satan on record as condoning the ownership of other people?

I could go on and on, but I imagine you can see my point rather clearly. Notice the stories of Genesis, Job, the tempting of Christ, etc -- the character of Satan is always tends to play a very unique role. I'm sure you've observed the similarities in these roles and know what I'm alluding to, which is a rather stark contrast to many of the abominable actions, orders and scenarios attributed to God.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I would rather you elaborate on the point you're making with this.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-14-2019, 11:59 AM)bfine32 Wrote: AAAHHHH.....Now I see the point you're trying to make and you would have one (be it a teeny, tiny unrelated one) if the Serpent would have said "I've been told you can eat from the tree..."

WTS, I'm done with this back and forth as there may be those reading this thread trying to get a truer understanding and I do not want to distract from that.

More word games. It's obviously implied the serpent was told that by the other talking animals. Unless you believe the serpent got his information from God, Adam, or Eve?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-14-2019, 12:22 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Eternal life and being alive are two different things. That's why there's a distinction between "going to hell" and "eternal life".

Living forever is different than being alive?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-14-2019, 03:32 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: God sends people to hell who are willfully disobedient. The fact that God created eternal damnation doesn't make him bad, at least not to me because the eternal damnation is not what he desires. He created an equally better counter part to it which he wants us to go to. The fact that people choose eternal damnation is on them. 

What makes God good to me isn't what he created or allows to happen to us, but what it is he actually desires for us.

I'm born a sinner because of Original Sin. I didn't choose that. I inherited it because of something Adam and Eve did generations ago.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-14-2019, 11:34 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Living forever is different than being alive?

Gaining eternal life and becoming alive are two different things. Not sure how much more I can break this down.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-14-2019, 04:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Pretty sure you're missing the entire point. Whether she lived/died/became godlike/remained human is not the point. Because as we know she/Adam didn't die "the very day" they ate the fruit.

The point is she was told not to  and she knew she was told not to and she still ate because Satan told her she wouldn't die. So it matters not whether she believed she was going to die or not. Her sin was disobedience. 

Now if the serpent would have said "God really doesn't care if you eat from the tree" you may have a point, but the serpent simply told Eve why God did not want her to eat

And someone who doesn't realize they're naked would understand all of that?

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-14-2019, 11:40 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I'm born a sinner because of Original Sin. I didn't choose that. I inherited it because of something Adam and Eve did generations ago.

Yet you're making the choice to continually sin.

[Lucidus]

(05-14-2019, 11:10 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Just because Adam and Eve (well actually all human beings for that matter) are confused and suffer because God created us and allows everything to happen doesn't mean he doesn't care about us. How can you make that conclusion? The fact that God even offers us a way out means he cares. Just because God knew what would happen doesn't mean that he can't care within the realm of already knowing. Even though God knew it would happen he still had mercy on them (and all of us) to the point that he wants us to actually come back to him. A non-caring being would not do that. A non-caring being would have obliterated them immediately or offered them no salvation whatsoever.

I fail to see how a "caring" deity would knowingly create and direct the very conditions that he knew would lead to a failed experiment. Moreover, he punished the subjects of the experiment for failing in the very scenario that he created -- knowing in advance that it would fail. Even more unnerving is the fact -- as part of this experiment -- allows the temptation of beings who have no knowledge of what temptation, right and wrong or good and evil even are. He literally punishes them for the scenario he created in which they were given incredibly limited information and then told there was a magic tree that offered knowledge, but they must avoid it and remain ignorant.

In what reality does any of that make any sense? In what reality is that type of capriciousness considered caring? In what reality are the subjects of an experiment punished for it's failure, while the creator of the experiment is exempt from responsibility?

Quote:It seems to me that you're trying to twist God's intentions. You're doing this roundabout thing of "The bible would like you to think that God didn't want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, but he actually did because he put it right there in the garden with them. Therefore he is evil".
But that's not true. God didn't want them to eat the fruit. Just because he put the tree there doesn't mean he had some real evil intention of having them eat the fruit so that he could punish them. Again, God's intention was for us to live in peace with him, not to disobey him.

I don't want to put words in your mouth, so I would rather you elaborate on the point you're making with this.

So, God had two options, as a matter of either/or.

1] He could have not put the tree in the garden, therefore eliminating the possibility that Adam and Eve would ever gain the knowledge of good and evil. This was however, what he wanted -- for them to remain ignorant of said knowledge. By doing this, there would be no opportunity for them to partake of that which was forbidden.

2] He could place the tree in the garden, making the very knowledge he forbid easily accessible to Adam and Eve. Furthermore, he could allow them the freedom to choose to partake of the knowledge. In addition he could endow them with a curious nature and then provide a method of temptation to further test and confuse these beings with infantile minds and extremely limited information.

One of these choices seems much more rational and competent than the other if the actual intent is to keep the knowledge of good and evil from his creation. Some might say, "well then they wouldn't have free will" or something along those lines. However, I see no problem with denying them access to that which he seemed so intent on them not learning, while still granting them freedom of choice in all other areas. Instead, he seems to have chosen the more convoluted approach, which, he knew ahead of time, which makes the account all the more puzzling - whether real or simply allegorical.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-14-2019, 05:28 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I must ask what knowledge you possess that allows you to make emphatic determinations on whether any of the extraordinary claims made by the deity in these stories are in fact true? 

What evidence clearly establishes that the character of Satan is less good or more evil than God?

If you've read the Bible, it's obvious God is the hero and Satan is the villain. That answers your question why Christians believe God is good and Satan isn't.

As to why people believe; it's a faith based religion. I believe you have received your answer numerous times. Why are you persistent in asking for special knowledge or evidence for the basis of their belief when they have told you repeatedly that faith, not evidence, is the basis of their belief?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-14-2019, 11:44 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Gaining eternal life and becoming alive are two different things. Not sure how much more I can break this down.

If they gained "eternal life" wouldn't that be a good reason to call it The Tree of Life? I guess I don't understand what distinction you're trying to make.

[*bfine32*]

(05-14-2019, 10:49 PM)Lucidus Wrote: You don't know if you want salvation or not?

So, one can be granted eternal salvation through the grace of Christ and still choose to:

not be subservient
question God's authority
boast of worthiness
refuse to worship him
not ask for forgiveness

???

No. You're not worthy.

Sure. I question God's will on a daily basis. 

My turn to pose a question:

You changed beg to ask. Why was that?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-14-2019, 11:49 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Yet you're making the choice to continually sin.

As is the case with every Christian and non-Christian alive today according to Christian doctrine.

[Lucidus]

(05-15-2019, 12:11 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: If you've read the Bible, it's obvious God is the hero and Satan is the villain. That answers your question why Christians believe God is good and Satan isn't.

As to why people believe; it's a faith based religion. I believe you have received your answer numerous times. Why are you persistent in asking for special knowledge or evidence for the basis of their belief when they have told you repeatedly that faith, not evidence, is the basis of their belief?

Respectfully, your response would then beg the question as to why you are participating in this thread, in efforts to challenge or refute what they're saying?

Obviously, the narrative presented is one that portrays God as good and Satan as evil. However, there have been growing -- and rather interesting -- debates in recent years among scholars, theologians and literary historians as to whether the underlying actions and intentions of each truly supports the proposed narrative. I'm intrigued by the input of those who aren't approaching it from an academic point of view.

I prefer to let them speak for themselves, offer their own opinions or ideas, and chose whether they want to engage in conversation with me or not. It would seem that they are very capable of making those determinations on their own, and not reliant on you to speak for them.

[Lucidus]

(05-15-2019, 12:17 AM)bfine32 Wrote: No. You're not worthy.

Sure. I question God's will on a daily basis. 

My turn to pose a question:

You changed beg to ask. Why was that?

I hadn't noticed that I did, but I think it's a difference without a distinction in that scenario. Whether you ask, seek, inquire, beg, plead or implore -- you are still requesting forgiveness, correct?

[*bfine32*]

(05-15-2019, 12:38 AM)Lucidus Wrote: I hadn't noticed that I did, but I think it's a difference without a distinction in that scenario. Whether you ask, seek, inquire, beg, plead or implore -- you are still requesting forgiveness, correct?

Of course the words matter; but l'll take you at your word that you didn't notice.  

As to asking begging for forgiveness; it's your personal relationship. IMO, if you believe and confess it publicly, it's forgiven long before you ask beg. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-15-2019, 12:29 AM)Lucidus Wrote: Respectfully, your response would then beg the question as to why you are participating in this thread, in efforts to challenge or refute what they're saying?

Obviously, the narrative presented is one that portrays God as good and Satan as evil. However, there have been growing -- and rather interesting -- debates in recent years among scholars, theologians and literary historians as to whether the underlying actions and intentions of each truly supports the proposed narrative. I'm intrigued by the input of those who aren't approaching it from an academic point of view.

I prefer to let them speak for themselves, offer their own opinions or ideas, and chose whether they want to engage in conversation with me or not. It would seem that they are very capable of making those determinations on their own, and not reliant on you to speak for them.

I wasn't speaking for them, merely summarizing their answers and inquiring why you choose to ignore their answers (faith) in search of answers they aren't providing (evidence).

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I think I'm starting to understand what you're asking.

There is no empirical evidence that you seek, there is only anecdotal evidence and personal testimony. This anecdotal evidence is only true to the subject and is only there as that subjects own testimony.

There is no process that you go through to come to a belief or to gain Faith, it just happens...at least for me it did but I'm one that has always believed in God for as long as I remember. It wasn't until I was 21 that I started to understand and learn. My Faith continues to grow as does my learning and understanding and will continue until I die, it will never end.

I hope this answers your question because it's the best I've got.

[*michaelsean*]

(05-14-2019, 03:32 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: God sends people to hell who are willfully disobedient. The fact that God created eternal damnation doesn't make him bad, at least not to me because the eternal damnation is not what he desires. He created an equally better counter part to it which he wants us to go to. The fact that people choose eternal damnation is on them. 

What makes God good to me isn't what he created or allows to happen to us, but what it is he actually desires for us.

This is where I separate from religion which is mostly what's being argued here.  How could God not get what He desires?

[GMDino]

(05-15-2019, 12:49 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course the words matter; but l'll take you at your word that you didn't notice.  

As to asking begging for forgiveness; it's your personal relationship. IMO, if you believe and confess it publicly, it's forgiven long before you ask beg. 

passive aggressive post is passive aggressive.