(02-26-2020, 08:24 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: He hasn't supported socialist countries. He has said positive things about them in the past. You can say "This regime is terrible, but they did promote literacy for its citizens, which is a good thing." I'm not sure why you think that's controversial.
Tell me about it. I can't stand the fact that our government has total control of policing in this country. They do the same with fire fighting and public road building and maintenance. It's really quite absurd if you ask me. If the government keeps intervening in these social programs, we are bound to collapse in on ourselves.
And don't even get me started on how much the government intervenes on my attempts to rob and murder people. It really makes me sick.
Like, what are governments even for? Definitely not to help and protect its citizens. That shit should be left to the free market. If you can't afford to protect yourself, then you deserve to die on the street, in my opinion.
/s
So you agree that Bernie isn't a socialist and he is conflating democratic socialism and social democracy? Awesome! We got you there. I'm proud of your willingness to change your mind, Brad. I wish Bernie would appropriately label himself and his platform as a social democrat as well.
Unfortunately, if he changed his self label now, the MSM would just accuse him of backpedaling to avoid the stigma of Socialism. So he's in quite a pickle. But I'm glad that you've admitted freely that he is not, in fact, a socialist. And neither are the countries he wants to model our healthcare off of.
(02-26-2020, 07:57 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Hey while I'm all for Free Education and Healthcare for all, but in Hollerdo's case (not sure which country your from) they only spend 0.7% of their GDP on their military.
That rings true. Also, that is a fair criticism. In our defense, as ironic as that word may seem - it's what you asked of us back in '55. Rather demanded. We had to agree to never take sides in an armed conflict and to put it in out constitution.
So we just spend what is required to defend ourselves, and even though the Swiss might look suspicious we have little fear that someone will actually come and conquer us. We do spend a little on totally useless jet fighters from time to time though.
In general, I probably am an European minority but I'm all for spending more on the military, locally and within Europe. Preferrably as part of an European defense agreement of some sorts. We probably could do that though without sacrificing our social welfare.
On the other hand, you could spend less. You don't really need a space force for example.
A majority of Bernie's platform is long overdue in this country. I have no doubt that he would fight for the working class if he made it to the White House. Some dog on him because he doesn't speak in sterile, dry platitudes but I think that is what makes him a great nominee. People feel like he is being honest rather than just saying the right things to get elected.
(02-26-2020, 09:16 PM)hollodero Wrote: That rings true. Also, that is a fair criticism. In our defense, as ironic as that word may seem - it's what you asked of us back in '55. Rather demanded. We had to agree to never take sides in an armed conflict and to put it in out constitution.
So we just spend what is required to defend ourselves, and even though the Swiss might look suspicious we have little fear that someone will actually come and conquer us. We do spend a little on totally useless jet fighters from time to time though.
In general, I probably am an European minority but I'm all for spending more on the military, locally and within Europe. Preferrably as part of an European defense agreement of some sorts. We probably could do that though without sacrificing our social welfare.
On the other hand, you could spend less. You don't really need a space force for example.
This is Macron's fight at the moment because obviously since Brexit, France is the european defense.
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
(02-26-2020, 07:57 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Hey while I'm all for Free Education and Healthcare for all, but in Hollerdo's case (not sure which country your from) they only spend 0.7% of their GDP on their military. Could you imagine how many programs we could have if our military expenditure went from 3.2% to 0.7%, that's what $625B, and would give us about 490B to spend on those programs?
So what are we waiting for?
That is part of the attraction to Bernie.
He would make America great again by spending on infrastructure (not a wall) and education.
(02-26-2020, 09:16 PM)hollodero Wrote: That rings true. Also, that is a fair criticism. In our defense, as ironic as that word may seem - it's what you asked of us back in '55. Rather demanded. We had to agree to never take sides in an armed conflict and to put it in out constitution.
So we just spend what is required to defend ourselves, and even though the Swiss might look suspicious we have little fear that someone will actually come and conquer us. We do spend a little on totally useless jet fighters from time to time though.
In general, I probably am an European minority but I'm all for spending more on the military, locally and within Europe. Preferrably as part of an European defense agreement of some sorts. We probably could do that though without sacrificing our social welfare.
On the other hand, you could spend less. You don't really need a space force for example.
That was back when the "side" in question was the Soviet Union. They are gone now.
Time for you guys to join NATO and carry your fair share! E.G. in Afghanistan.
No need to spend all that extra cash on education, social services and your own infrastructure.
(02-26-2020, 07:14 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: What made America great, even from the start, was people trying to work harder and produce new ideas and new things to get ahead in life. That's the American dream. Why would people have any motivation to better themselves and move forward if they won't see a reward and people who do nothing get just as much as people who try to improve their lives? Europeans tend to think that they're less likely to control their own destiny, and that you can get ahead in life by working hard, which is, like I said, the American dream. America is based on freedoms, not the government controlling everything. Americans prioritize individual liberty, whereas European countries want more government control.
If college were free, then what would be the benefits of working hard in high school to get into a good college and what would prevent students from just becoming professional students?
The United States is also MUCH more unhealthy than Europe, making healthcare not as big of an expense.
Jeezus. If high school were free, what would keep students from just becoming professional students?
The slight differences in health between the US and countries like Germany hardly explains why we spend twice as much per capital on health care, why treatments for the same diseases cost so much more here. In contrast to Europe (and Japan), in the US a mass of private businesses intervenes between doctor and patient harvesting profits. Get rid of that and we are Germany and Japan in costs and outcomes.
Do you understand that social mobility in all those "not-socialist" Bernie-model European countries with the free Education is greater than in the US. Maybe we need to start calling the "American dream" the "American perception."
The Data show the Europeans are more reality-oriented.
"Freedoms" and "less governmental control" in the US case only means MORE GOVERNMENT CONTROL by corporations and less by the middle class and working class.
Corporations get away with it by scaring people about something called "socialism"--which most Americans know little about--so they vote their power away, ceding government to "freedoms" for the 1%. No accident that disinformation about socialism correlates with disinformation about European health care.
PS The US was hardly "great from the start." And where would France or Germany or Sweden or Japan be right now if they had the scale of US' continental resources since the 19th century?
(02-27-2020, 02:32 AM)treee Wrote: A majority of Bernie's platform is long overdue in this country. I have no doubt that he would fight for the working class if he made it to the White House. Some dog on him because he doesn't speak in sterile, dry platitudes but I think that is what makes him a great nominee. People feel like he is being honest rather than just saying the right things to get elected.
A lot of Bernie's policies would already be in place had the Democratic party not abandoned the views of FDR in favor of neo-liberalism.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(02-27-2020, 08:41 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Believe me for any european, this video is insane.
40 bucks to hold your own child at birth ??
40 bucks is not bad. It's a lot more to hold someone else's child.
If American citizens were forced to live for one year in Western Europe with European healthcare, then re-adjust to US healthcare, the argument about "socialism" would be over.
(02-27-2020, 08:41 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Believe me for any european, this video is insane.
40 bucks to hold your own child at birth ??
My kids were born at the hospital at Ft. Benning which is an Army base. It cost me less than $20 for each birth. Why? Because military medicine literally is socialized medicine because the government owns the hospital and all the equipment. Most of the employees work for the government. Any profits generated go to the government and not shareholders. Their operating costs are covered largely by taxes.
So who knew the US Army was a bunch of socialist bastards. Maybe Brad is going to need that gun after all to protect us from the hell of paying $20 a birth instead of $30K. Which obviously begs the question where’s the incentive or motivation not to have 15 kids if you don’t have to pay $30K for each birth? Right, Brad?
(02-27-2020, 08:41 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Believe me for any european, this video is insane.
40 bucks to hold your own child at birth ??
I haven't watched the video yet but I have some experience with the cost of healthcare having had two preemies.
The first spent two months in the NICU. The second spent two months in the NICU AND my wife developed a bleeding liver due to complications and spent two weeks in ANOTHER hospital after having emergency surgery the night after the c-section (also an emergency).
Long story short we both maxed out our insurances both times (this would have been 1998 and 2002) however because our children were underweight we received the "gold card" from the state that covered most of the rest of the medical bills. About $500,000 for the first one and over $1 for the second with both of them. (I'm estimating. I have the printouts still stored away somewhere.)
We were part of the lucky ones.
But I learned a lot about how hospitals charge and the one that will forever stick in my craw is that they charge for oxygen by the quarter hour. You know, just in case you pass during the hour.
Again, we were fortunate both in coverage and that our kids didn't have any setbacks or side effects from the ordeal. And they got GREAT care. But not everyone is that lucky and the experiences showed us how easily a medical emergency can destroy a family's finances.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(02-27-2020, 08:12 AM)Dill Wrote: Jeezus. If high school were free, what would keep students from just becoming professional students?
The slight differences in health between the US and countries like Germany hardly explains why we spend twice as much per capital on health care, why treatments for the same diseases cost so much more here. In contrast to Europe (and Japan), in the US a mass of private businesses intervenes between doctor and patient harvesting profits. Get rid of that and we are Germany and Japan in costs and outcomes.
Do you understand that social mobility in all those "not-socialist" Bernie-model European countries with the free Education is greater than in the US. Maybe we need to start calling the "American dream" the "American perception."
The Data show the Europeans are more reality-oriented.
"Freedoms" and "less governmental control" in the US case only means MORE GOVERNMENT CONTROL by corporations and less by the middle class and working class.
Corporations get away with it by scaring people about something called "socialism"--which most Americans know little about--so they vote their power away, ceding government to "freedoms" for the 1%. No accident that disinformation about socialism correlates with disinformation about European health care.
PS The US was hardly "great from the start." And where would France or Germany or Sweden or Japan be right now if they had the scale of US' continental resources since the 19th century?
You're wasting your time with actual facts backed up by authoritative sources.
(02-27-2020, 10:11 AM)GMDino Wrote: I haven't watched the video yet but I have some experience with the cost of healthcare having had two preemies.
The first spent two months in the NICU. The second spent two months in the NICU AND my wife developed a bleeding liver due to complications and spent two weeks in ANOTHER hospital after having emergency surgery the night after the c-section (also an emergency).
Long story short we both maxed out our insurances both times (this would have been 1998 and 2002) however because our children were underweight we received the "gold card" from the state that covered most of the rest of the medical bills. About $500,000 for the first one and over $1 for the second with both of them. (I'm estimating. I have the printouts still stored away somewhere.)
We were part of the lucky ones.
But I learned a lot about how hospitals charge and the one that will forever stick in my craw is that they charge for oxygen by the quarter hour. You know, just in case you pass during the hour.
Again, we were fortunate both in coverage and that our kids didn't have any setbacks or side effects from the ordeal. And they got GREAT care. But not everyone is that lucky and the experiences showed us how easily a medical emergency can destroy a family's finances.
Sometimes people in the US can get through such emergencies by selling their house.
Our European friends have likely never heard o "medical bankruptcy" though--a price we are happy to pay for our "freedoms."
(02-26-2020, 07:14 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: What made America great, even from the start, was people trying to work harder and produce new ideas and new things to get ahead in life. That's the American dream. Why would people have any motivation to better themselves and move forward if they won't see a reward and people who do nothing get just as much as people who try to improve their lives?
Brad, if you were invited to a school to give your presentation for half your normal speaking fee would you do a half assed job?
If your answer is “no” then you already understand self-motivation.
If your answer is “yes” then there is no amount of explanation which would help you understand self motivation, pride in self, pride in a job done well, or a work ethic.
(02-27-2020, 07:44 AM)Dill Wrote: That was back when the "side" in question was the Soviet Union. They are gone now.
Time for you guys to join NATO and carry your fair share! E.G. in Afghanistan.
No need to spend all that extra cash on education, social services and your own infrastructure.
Yeah the Warsaw pact is gone, but we still have "everlasting neutrality" in our constitution.
And yeah, we should indeed change that and show some solidarity and responsibility. Not that this will ever happen. Our neutrality turned us into a nation of pacifists where every demand to spend money into the military is seen as a form of mass murder.
And if anything were to happen, Germany will save us, or France, or the US. Let those countries take care of these things. We rely on that and make fun of them instead, stupid countries spending on defense.
If I were Germany or France, I'd be pissed about a country so pacifistic that it made itself factually defenseless and actually brags about it.
Please no one show that take to a compatriot of mine. I'd probably lose my citizenship.
![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png)
![[Image: ulVdgX6.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/ulVdgX6.jpg)
![[Image: snapshot-mobility.png&w=608&h=]](https://www.epi.org/m/?src=http://www.epi.org/files/2012/snapshot-mobility.png&w=608&h=)
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media0.giphy.com/media/1kwsTjL8BNqlszNtnCE/giphy.gif)
![[Image: 416686247_404249095282684_84217049823664...e=659A7198]](https://scontent.fphx1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/416686247_404249095282684_8421704982366424390_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=3635dc&_nc_ohc=p8hMrwwk1IoAX8mnFLJ&_nc_ht=scontent.fphx1-2.fna&oh=00_AfBXs4gKHr4knFejO874dfV3zzLd_bq4GiUqHxGWFlwbug&oe=659A7198)
