Education Comparisons

[*michaelsean*]

(03-11-2016, 10:54 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: On top in what way?

Economic, innovation, military.

[jmccracky]

(03-10-2016, 10:03 PM)6andcounting Wrote: I think this exists on a very small scale right now. I'm not sure how it works because it doesn't pertain to me, but there is a loan forgiveness program for federal loans for public school teachers. I'd hate to put the government in the business of deciding which things should be covered; lobbyists will buy special treatment for their industry or school. And there's so much room to disagree. I'd say school teachers are important, but right now it's impossible for recent graduates to land a salaried teaching position. From an economic sense, we don't need more education students. Teachers unions would disagree. I love the idea, but making it work will become a bloated, inefficient bureaucracy. But that's not to say I wouldn't absolutely that type of change.

(03-11-2016, 09:56 AM)GMDino Wrote: A longer answer:

(I'll talk about my experiences with homeschooling within my extended family later.)

I went to Catholic school. 1-12.  Then a catholic, liberal arts college.

I loved every second of it.

Small classes, good friends, few problems.  Even the cliques got along well enough that there wasn't fights and such.

My sister, four years younger than me, went to the same schools 1-12. 

She hated every second of it.

Classes were too small, she only had a few girls she could be friends with.  If you had a problem with someone you couldn't avoid them.

Education, like most things, is a situation where you get out what your put in.  And there is no "one size fits all" for it.

My 8th grade class had 11 kids in it.  And we were STILL split up in math class (7 and 4) so the ones that did not catch on as fast (or at all) could get a quality education while the rest of us kept pushing forward.

When my wife and I had out oldest ready for school we debated public vs private.  We both agreed that as long as we were involved with her studies she would be okay wither way. She was very smart but shy.  So we opted for private and the smaller school.  

By the end of the first day she had come out of her shell and we realized we could have gone either way and she would be fine.

By 6th grade she wanted to go to the public school for junior high and we allowed it.  Out son also wanted to switch (3rd grade at the time) and we allowed that too.

Both have excelled in their studies.

But that is only our situation.

Over the last 25 years since I left college I've seen the effects of the politicizing of the school system.  Politicians using taxes to rile up people to hate the teachers and the schools.  

Could schools spend better?  Sure.  But to do that constructively would be better than just demanding they do more with less.  Let's stop the bickering and let the people who understand education make recommendations rather than people who want re-elected.

I know way too many teachers that care and do the right thing to be put off by the occasional one that holds on too long or is a poor teacher.  I've seen so many who love their jobs and struggle to do a good job but are working within a framework created by people who are more demanding of others than themselves (politicians).

Close schools to save money...cram more kids into a classroom...wonder why the slower kids aren't doing as well...blame the teacher and demand they meet a "standard"...teacher has to dumb down so more people meet the "standard" once a year...the kids suffer...but the politician can say they "did something".

It's sad and it is a shame and it is killing us from the inside out.

I have 4 more years after this in the local school system.  I hope we can get through it before the next "great idea" comes along and makes it any worse.  When the BEST idea would be to go back to the way it was:  Smaller classes, more teachers, specialized teachers for those who need it.  Gym, music, PLAY TIME.

These are CHILDREN.  We've started to slide back to a mentality where we need to treat kids like adults to "prepare" them for life.  How about we let them have some fun and enjoy being young before we kill their hopes and dreams?  Maybe one of their dreams will lead them to bettering the world.

Agreed, 100 percent. 

[fredtoast]

(03-11-2016, 12:39 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: If a non-certified, non-"educated" mom can successfully homeschool her children, not just passable but GOOD students - and I've personally seen examples and I know there are many more....

Maybe the schools aren't the problem...

So all we need is schools with one teacher for every child (or 2 or 3).

[fredtoast]

(03-11-2016, 10:46 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Just as an aside, how come every study like this that comes out says how bad we suck, and yet we dominate the world?  We've been the dumbest people in the world for as long as I can remember, and yet somehow we are always on top.

We built a huge lead with untapped natural resources that pushed us to the top during the industrial revolution.  

We have also benefited greatly from not having an enemy within thousands of miles of us for the last 150 years.

[JustWinBaby]

(03-11-2016, 12:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So all we need is schools with one teacher for every child (or 2 or 3).

It mostly comes down to ability.  A capable child, with proper parental involvement and encouragement, will do just fine.

But, yeah, we do a poor job of teaching children with less ability.  Consider that the foundation for reading, writing and basic arithmetic is laid early on in elementary, and homework (where parents might take start taking a more active role) doesn't really start until 4th or 5th grade.

What we are spending on education clearly isn't the problem (only a few countries are higher).  The typical liberal solution "spend more money" is another non-starter.

[fredtoast]

(03-11-2016, 01:27 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: What we are spending on education clearly isn't the problem (only a few countries are higher).  The typical liberal solution "spend more money" is another non-starter.

Except liberals don't just say "spend money".  That is nothing but echo chamber rhetoric.  Liberals at least have specific ideas and programs that require these extra funds.

That is much better than the Republicans plans of "cutting the funds" or "give the funds to private schools and screw the kids stuck in public schools".

[Belsnickel]

(03-11-2016, 11:26 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Economic, innovation, military.

Economic: has less to do with education and more to do with resources, regulatory landscape, available revenue streams, etc.
Military: again, little to do with education.
Innovation: has more to do with higher education. The innovators are the exception to the rule, and a lot of them are people coming here from other countries so they can take advantage of our universities.

[*michaelsean*]

(03-11-2016, 02:15 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Economic: has less to do with education and more to do with resources, regulatory landscape, available revenue streams, etc.
Military: again, little to do with education.
Innovation: has more to do with higher education. The innovators are the exception to the rule, and a lot of them are people coming here from other countries so they can take advantage of our universities.

So why even compare to other nations?  Where is their advantage to being better at calculus?  Let the best of Asia Africa and Europe come here and use their talents.

[Sovereign Nation]

(03-11-2016, 09:41 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I see some discussions about home schooling. I have seen both good and bad results from this. Of course, you can have idiots teaching children in schools as well, so there is that. The biggest negative I have seen in home schooled children is I have seen some that lacked any socialization and as a result they did not know how to interact with peers.

Essentially, the results I have seen from home schooling have been either really, really good, or really, really bad.

You know, I have never had an issue with a person that was home schooled, they always seemed engaged and didn't seem to lack any of those social skills.

I have a different outlook on this, of course this is just pure speculation so take from it as you will:

Could it be that the home schooled kid is actually very adept at socializing but chooses to remain quiet due to being smarter than the average kid?  So what looks like anti social behavior or tentativeness is actually them just trying to fit in by avoiding unnecessary arguments with people that they know won't understand them because they know the person isn't on their level?

Are there some Bobby Boucher's out there?  Sure, I don't doubt they exist.  However, the ones I have personally met have been extremely social and intelligent, but around some people they sit back and just watch and observe.  Never asked them why, but I do the same thing and I do it because there are many people that I just don't even bother with.

[*michaelsean*]

I'd be more in line with home schooling if not every single person I knew who did it was weird.

[Sovereign Nation]

(03-11-2016, 09:56 AM)GMDino Wrote: A longer answer:

(I'll talk about my experiences with homeschooling within my extended family later.)

I went to Catholic school. 1-12.  Then a catholic, liberal arts college.

I loved every second of it.

Small classes, good friends, few problems.  Even the cliques got along well enough that there wasn't fights and such.

My sister, four years younger than me, went to the same schools 1-12. 

She hated every second of it.

Classes were too small, she only had a few girls she could be friends with.  If you had a problem with someone you couldn't avoid them.

Education, like most things, is a situation where you get out what your put in.  And there is no "one size fits all" for it.

My 8th grade class had 11 kids in it.  And we were STILL split up in math class (7 and 4) so the ones that did not catch on as fast (or at all) could get a quality education while the rest of us kept pushing forward.

When my wife and I had out oldest ready for school we debated public vs private.  We both agreed that as long as we were involved with her studies she would be okay wither way. She was very smart but shy.  So we opted for private and the smaller school.  

By the end of the first day she had come out of her shell and we realized we could have gone either way and she would be fine.

By 6th grade she wanted to go to the public school for junior high and we allowed it.  Out son also wanted to switch (3rd grade at the time) and we allowed that too.

Both have excelled in their studies.

But that is only our situation.

Over the last 25 years since I left college I've seen the effects of the politicizing of the school system.  Politicians using taxes to rile up people to hate the teachers and the schools.  

Could schools spend better?  Sure.  But to do that constructively would be better than just demanding they do more with less.  Let's stop the bickering and let the people who understand education make recommendations rather than people who want re-elected.

I know way too many teachers that care and do the right thing to be put off by the occasional one that holds on too long or is a poor teacher.  I've seen so many who love their jobs and struggle to do a good job but are working within a framework created by people who are more demanding of others than themselves (politicians).

Close schools to save money...cram more kids into a classroom...wonder why the slower kids aren't doing as well...blame the teacher and demand they meet a "standard"...teacher has to dumb down so more people meet the "standard" once a year...the kids suffer...but the politician can say they "did something".

It's sad and it is a shame and it is killing us from the inside out.

I have 4 more years after this in the local school system.  I hope we can get through it before the next "great idea" comes along and makes it any worse.  When the BEST idea would be to go back to the way it was:  Smaller classes, more teachers, specialized teachers for those who need it.  Gym, music, PLAY TIME.

These are CHILDREN.  We've started to slide back to a mentality where we need to treat kids like adults to "prepare" them for life.  How about we let them have some fun and enjoy being young before we kill their hopes and dreams?  Maybe one of their dreams will lead them to bettering the world.

The thing to take away from this is that there is no one size fits all when it comes to education.

You can't cram every child into the same system and expect them all to come out the same.

Each child is different and learns differently.

[Sovereign Nation]

(03-11-2016, 03:47 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I'd be more in line with home schooling if not every single person I knew who did it was weird.

Again, could it be you.... you know, you not being smart enough...

Please know this is a joke.... I repeat just a joke....

[fredtoast]

(03-11-2016, 03:49 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: The thing to take away from this is that there is no one size fits all when it comes to education.

You can't cram every child into the same system and expect them all to come out the same.

Each child is different and learns differently.

But eventually all children have to follow set guidelines and rules when they get a job in the reaL world.

I have no problem with different learning plans for different kids, but part of education is learning how to work with others in a society.

Home schooled kids I have had experience with range from very smart, normal people to introverted religious fanatics.  As the commercials says "Individual results may vary".

[JustWinBaby]

(03-11-2016, 01:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Except liberals don't just say "spend money".  That is nothing but echo chamber rhetoric.  Liberals at least have specific ideas and programs that require these extra funds.

That is much better than the Republicans plans of "cutting the funds" or "give the funds to private schools and screw the kids stuck in public schools".

So, you're response to the "echo chamber" FACT that we already spend among the highest rates in the world is - WAIT FOR IT - programs that require more spending?

You know, I believe that in your head that might actually have made sense, but you once again offered up a refutation that 100% validates my point.

[fredtoast]

(03-11-2016, 05:12 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: So, you're response to the "echo chamber" FACT that we already spend among the highest rates in the world is - WAIT FOR IT - programs that require more spending?

You know, I believe that in your head that might actually have made sense, but you once again offered up a refutation that 100% validates my point.

Yes.  I am actually in favor of trying to do something to fix the problem.   I don't know why you find that so shocking.

I really don't understand your point here.  I have not yet heard your plan to fix the problem by cutting funds.  Or do you think that there is no problem to fix?  Not really sure exactly what you are trying to say.

[Belsnickel]

(03-11-2016, 03:44 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: You know, I have never had an issue with a person that was home schooled, they always seemed engaged and didn't seem to lack any of those social skills.

I have a different outlook on this, of course this is just pure speculation so take from it as you will:

Could it be that the home schooled kid is actually very adept at socializing but chooses to remain quiet due to being smarter than the average kid?  So what looks like anti social behavior or tentativeness is actually them just trying to fit in by avoiding unnecessary arguments with people that they know won't understand them because they know the person isn't on their level?

Are there some Bobby Boucher's out there?  Sure, I don't doubt they exist.  However, the ones I have personally met have been extremely social and intelligent, but around some people they sit back and just watch and observe.  Never asked them why, but I do the same thing and I do it because there are many people that I just don't even bother with.

I can see what you are saying, but that isn't it at all. It has definitely been a case of poor social skills.

[JustWinBaby]

(03-11-2016, 05:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes.  I am actually in favor of trying to do something to fix the problem.   I don'rt know why you find that so shocking.

I really don't understand your point here.  I have not yet heard your plan to fix the problem by cutting funds.  Or do you think that there is no problem to fix?  Not really sure exactly what you are trying to say.

You advocate new programs and new spending as "solutions"....Well, is it fair to say that the "new programs" you supported 5 or 10 years ago didn't do the job? Why can't we eliminate or restructure those programs to fund your new ones?

The problem isn't the money we are spending on education, the problem is clearly how we are spending it.  Why should we continue dumping money into mismanaged programs?  Not sure why that's so difficult to understand.

It's too bad you've never been in the real world of business. You would be amazed at what can be accomplished when budgets are tightened. Successful companies embrace the process of "creative destruction"....Failures keep throwing money at bad business.

[fredtoast]

(03-11-2016, 05:35 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: You advocate new programs and new spending as "solutions"....Well, is it fair to say that the "new programs" you supported 5 or 10 years ago didn't do the job? Why can't we eliminate or restructure those programs to fund your new ones?

The problem isn't the money we are spending on education, the problem is clearly how we are spending it.  Why should we continue dumping money into mismanaged programs?  Not sure why that's so difficult to understand.

It's too bad you've never been in the real world of business.  You would be amazed at what can be accomplished when budgets are tightened.  Successful companies embrace the process of "creative destruction"....Failures keep throwing money at bad business.

More vague BS with no substance.

i have no problem with re-structuring if that would fix the problem for free.  But I have no idea what you mean by this.  why aren't conservatives out promoting these idea that will fix education fof free.  I have done a little research, and most of what I hear involves vouchers.  What is this "re-structuring" that you are proposing.

You keep talking about the "real world", but I have had experience in the "real world" and I never saw anyone get very far by instructing workers to "fix a problem by fixing it".  The people that succeed are the ones that have actual plans and ideas.

And successful companies spend money to make more money.  That is why they all carry so much debt.

[Sovereign Nation]

(03-11-2016, 04:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But eventually all children have to follow set guidelines and rules when they get a job in the reaL world.

I have no problem with different learning plans for different kids, but part of education is learning how to work with others in a society.

Home schooled kids I have had experience with range from very smart, normal people to introverted religious fanatics.  As the commercials says "Individual results may vary".

I don't think I have seen anyone say that a child doesn't have to follow set guidelines.

[Sovereign Nation]

(03-11-2016, 05:35 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I can see what you are saying, but that isn't it at all. It has definitely been a case of poor social skills.

I can't speak for the people you have met.

Only for the ones I have. 

The ones I have met are very social people.  However they do get quiet when certain people come around, they just sit back and watch them.  Like I said, I don't know why they do so, I never asked, but I know I do the same thing sometimes.  Usually when the person is so full of "Wow", it is not worth engaging with them.

However, I do know that there have to be the Bouchers out there, I may not have met one yet, but I know they are out there.