Ephesians 6:5

[Lucidus]

(06-22-2020, 04:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How about this for an explanation.

The Bible is not the word of an omnipotent god because an amnipotent god would find slavery immoral and an abomination.  So instead the Bible is just the words of men who claimed (and might even have believeed) that they were inspired by an omnipotent god.

I agree that the Bible is not the word of a God, however being omnipotent has nothing to do with morality.

[Lucidus]

(06-21-2020, 08:53 PM)Benton Wrote: Oh if you're talking bigger picture, He did. The NT boils down to one thing: love each other. It took less than a paragraph. The rest of it was how to accomplish that in the society at the time so that going forward they could accomplish one command.

Why didn't God just say that in the Old Testament, instead of all the unadulterated instruction for killing, raping, pillaging, taking prisoners, enslaving people, etc? How and why did Warlord God become Hippie God? Was is it a necessary re-write, to rehabilitate his image? Was he simply drunk with power and ambition in the OT and realized that peace, love and harmony was a superior brand of messaging? Did he simply mature and mellow out with age, filled with regret and embarrassment over his past transgressions?

I'm being a tad sarcastic of course, but I find the extremely bi-polar and incompetent nature of this deity to be rather entertaining from a purely literary aspect. It's rather frightening in another sense, in that people actually believe these things and incorporate such ideology into their lives and thinking processes. 

[Arturo Bandini]

(06-22-2020, 04:52 PM)Lucidus Wrote: In that case, the designer is necessarily complicit.

Guilty not complicit. He just projects his guiltiness into you.

[Arturo Bandini]

(06-22-2020, 04:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How about this for an explanation.

The Bible is not the word of an omnipotent god because an amnipotent god would find slavery immoral and an abomination.  So instead the Bible is just the words of men who claimed (and might even have believeed) that they were inspired by an omnipotent god.

They were inspired by what they think as a human could be God projecting their own vision into God's one.

The main problem in religions ( IMHO ) is that we decided unilaterally ( sic ... ) that we were created as God's image and then could decide the fate of any species on Earth and in the Universe.

It is a big mistake. A giant one and Covid proved us that we are not essential to this planet ... Obviously.

Star Trek is very very representative of this. There is not a single civilization that learn anything to us and we are evangelizing the universe with our wisdom without any questioning about ourselves.

[Arturo Bandini]

(06-22-2020, 07:04 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Why didn't God just say that in the Old Testament, instead of all the unadulterated instruction for killing, raping, pillaging, taking prisoners, enslaving people, etc? How and why did Warlord God become Hippie God? Was is it a necessary re-write, to rehabilitate his image? Was he simply drunk with power and ambition in the OT and realized that peace, love and harmony was a superior brand of messaging? Did he simply mature and mellow out with age, filled with regret and embarrassment over his past transgressions?

I'm being a tad sarcastic of course, but I find the extremely bi-polar and incompetent nature of this deity to be rather entertaining from a purely literary aspect. It's rather frightening in another sense, in that people actually believe these things and incorporate such ideology into their lives and thinking processes. 

Why didn't God foresee the Internet era to give an universal message instead of giving it to people who weren't even aware of other planets, other countries and other way of thinking ? They thought Earth was flat, central to all of this because we were the cherry on the cake.

THat's one of the main thing that I don't understand in the God of religion.

The dude is an idiot. And a big one.

[Lucidus]

(06-22-2020, 07:06 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Guilty not complicit. He just projects his guiltiness into you.

It's a rather sadistic game if you think about it. This proposed deity CREATES you with imperfections, then blames YOU for those imperfections and finally requires you ask forgiveness for the imperfections HE created you with. 

[Lucidus]

(06-22-2020, 07:15 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Why didn't God foresee the Internet era to give an universal message instead of giving it to people who weren't even aware of other planets, other countries and other way of thinking ? They thought Earth was flat, central to all of this because we were the cherry on the cake.

THat's one of the main thing that I don't understand in the God of religion.

The dude is an idiot. And a big one.

Look at the concept of personal revelation. Why some and not everyone? Why differing revelations? Of course, we know why and it explains the very nonsensical nature of it all. "God" is simply the product of man's projection. God will be to each person what each person wants God to be. The idea of God dwells within in the fears, desires, insecurities and wishful thinking of man, and takes on many forms and variations depending on what one chooses in their particular adaptation of God.

[Dill]

(06-22-2020, 07:30 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Look at the concept of personal revelation. Why some and not everyone? Why differing revelations? Of course, we know why and it explains the very nonsensical nature of it all. "God" is simply the product of man's projection. God will be to each person what each person wants God to be. The idea of God dwells within in the fears, desires, insecurities and wishful thinking of man, and takes on many forms and variations depending on what one chooses in their particular adaptation of God.

Ever read Feuerbach?

[Benton]

(06-22-2020, 07:15 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Why didn't God foresee the Internet era to give an universal message instead of giving it to people who weren't even aware of other planets, other countries and other way of thinking ? They thought Earth was flat, central to all of this because we were the cherry on the cake.

THat's one of the main thing that I don't understand in the God of religion.

The dude is an idiot. And a big one.

Have you thought out trying to explain the internet to someone 2000 years ago? 

[Arturo Bandini]

(06-23-2020, 10:42 AM)Benton Wrote: Have you thought out trying to explain the internet to someone 2000 years ago? 

Am I supposed to be God and know the future ?

What's your point ? 

[Benton]

(06-22-2020, 07:04 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Why didn't God just say that in the Old Testament, instead of all the unadulterated instruction for killing, raping, pillaging, taking prisoners, enslaving people, etc? How and why did Warlord God become Hippie God? Was is it a necessary re-write, to rehabilitate his image? Was he simply drunk with power and ambition in the OT and realized that peace, love and harmony was a superior brand of messaging? Did he simply mature and mellow out with age, filled with regret and embarrassment over his past transgressions?

I'm being a tad sarcastic of course, but I find the extremely bi-polar and incompetent nature of this deity to be rather entertaining from a purely literary aspect. It's rather frightening in another sense, in that people actually believe these things and incorporate such ideology into their lives and thinking processes. 

If you wanted to turn Conan into mother Theresa would you start at the end or work your way there?

Context of the society is important. If the norm is to kill someone over an ox, you've got a lot of ground to cover.

[Arturo Bandini]

(06-23-2020, 11:58 AM)Benton Wrote: If you wanted to turn Conan into mother Theresa would you start at the end or work your way there?

Context of the society is important. If the norm is to kill someone over an ox, you've got a lot of ground to cover.

Because we stopped killing people 2000 years ago ?


Tell that to natives, iraqi, vietnamese etc ...

[Benton]

(06-23-2020, 12:37 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Because we stopped killing people 2000 years ago ?


Tell that to natives, iraqi, vietnamese etc ...

That's pretty much the point.

We didn't stop killing each other in the OT times. We didn't stop in the NT times. But we continue progressing century by century, generation by generation. Or at least, I hope we are.

[Arturo Bandini]

(06-23-2020, 12:50 PM)Benton Wrote: That's pretty much the point.

We didn't stop killing each other in the OT times. We didn't stop in the NT times. But we continue progressing century by century, generation by generation. Or at least, I hope we are.

And hopefully after that, we also stop killing animals and every breathing thing ...

There is not a single specie we didn't slaughter for fun or for convenience.

[Lucidus]

(06-23-2020, 03:50 AM)Dill Wrote: Ever read Feuerbach?

I'm only familiar with the Essence of Christianity, in which [if I recall correctly] he proposes the idea of God being a projection of man. I don't remember it distinctly, as it's been a number of years since reading it, but I believe he also detailed his objections to belief in revelation. Again, it's been some time, so my memory is a bit sparse as to the specifics.

[Dill]

(06-23-2020, 03:54 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I'm only familiar with the Essence of Christianity, in which [if I recall correctly] he proposes the idea of God being a projection of man. I don't remember it distinctly, as it's been a number of years since reading it, but I believe he also detailed his objections to belief in revelation. Again, it's been some time, so my memory is a bit sparse as to the specifics.

Yes, a left-Hegelian humanism.  God is "externalized" and projected outwards, first on to fetishized objects, then into the heavens, in a kind of self-estrangement or alienation of "Man's" own inner values.

In his version of religious history, "Man" gradually comes to recognize himself as the source of these externally projected values. Jesus is a big step in this process (recognizing God within) which culminates in "man's" full recognition of himself as source/author, and a "liberation" from superstition. So critique of religion is process of self-recognition and re-integration of alienated value.

Marx has an interesting critique of this in The German Ideology, where he argues that Feuerbach's conception of man is itself "theological," and a historical form of "bourgeois consciousness."

[Lucidus]

(06-23-2020, 04:05 PM)Dill Wrote: Yes, a left-Hegelian humanism.  God is "externalized" and projected outwards, first on to fetishized objects, then into the heavens, in a kind of self-estrangement or alienation of "Man's" own inner values.

In his version of religious history, "Man" gradually comes to recognize himself as the source of these externally projected values. Jesus is a big step in this process (recognizing God within) which culminates in "man's" full recognition of himself as source/author, and a "liberation" from superstition. So critique of religion is process of self-recognition and re-integration of alienated value.

Marx has an interesting critique of this in The German Ideology, where he argues that Feuerbach's conception of man is itself "theological," and a historical form of "bourgeois consciousness."

Interesting that Marx described it as bourgeois consciousness. I had a conversation with a couple of colleagues a few months back where that topic, or the basic premise associated with it, came up. There is a movement by some theologians involved with the current academic circuit that are leaning more and more in this direction, whether it be an archetypal model of explanation, a increasingly meta-spiritual definition of belief, etc. 

I could envision some describing that shift as a "bourgeois redefining" of traditional religious belief, although I will say that it is much more in line with what I believe to be far more precise representation of historical origin and a much more logical, honest position than that of a "literal God."

[*bfine32*]

I'll talk about religion all day and night with anyone, but here's the main thing:

We of a finite mind try to understand the rationality of someone with infinite wisdom.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-23-2020, 08:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'll talk about religion all day and night with anyone, but here's the main thing:

We of a finite mind try to understand the rationality of someone with infinite wisdom.

Which makes it difficult to reconcile the alleged inventor of every field of science known to man with the co-dependent, bipolar, schizophrenic, homicidal sociopath With borderline personality disorder who constantly contradicts himself and makes illogical decisions portrayed in the Bible.

God to Moses: Free my people from slavery.
Moses to Pharaoh: Let my people go.
Pharaoh to Moses: Okay.
God to Pharaoh: No. Don’t let my people go. I must smite you to prove how powerful I am to the world.
Moses to Pharaoh: Let my people go.
Pharaoh to Moses: Okay already. GTFO.
God to Pharaoh: NO! I HAVEN’T FINISHED KILLING, YET!
God to Moses: Imma need you guys to mark your homes with lamb’s blood so I don’t accidentally kill your first born because even though I know everything, I don’t know your addresses. The street signs in ancient Egypt are just mashugana. Oy vey.

It reads like a Mel Brooks’ comedy.

[samhain]

(06-23-2020, 12:50 PM)Benton Wrote: That's pretty much the point.

We didn't stop killing each other in the OT times. We didn't stop in the NT times. But we continue progressing century by century, generation by generation. Or at least, I hope we are.

I feel like we are becoming even more brutal, just in less straightforward fashion.  Physical combat of the face-to-face nature is rarer even in war.  We have planes, ICBMs and drones to do the work for us.  Not to say that infantry-style warfare isn't a thing, it's just not the only thing or even the main option.  

To my point, I'm really not even getting at physical violence when I make the assertion.  People flat-out don't give a rip about each other anymore.  They don't care what happens to a person half a world away in a Chinese concentration camp and they don't care about the dude three blocks away who's overdosing on fentanyl.  They don't have time to.  They are ground down to a pulp chasing stuff they don't need.  There is zero sense of desire for a common good anymore as I see it.  I feel like most people would be just fine with whatever fate befell any given stranger, so long as they didn't have to see it and it didn't effect them directly.  

Modern economics are a meat grinder with us as the meat.  We care little for the rest of the world getting turned to chum, so long as we're still getting by in the end.  

I hope like hell that if there's a god, he's nothing like any of us.  If he is, we're in deep shit.