Expectations for Kirkpatrick this year

[treee]

(08-19-2016, 06:54 PM)Junglejuice Wrote: This.

Even the best get abused by the better receivers sometimes.

Dre is not Pac Man but hes def more than serviceable and I don't believe he is the one blight on our secondary like some believe.

In a meaningless preseason game, nonetheless.  

[Beaker]

(08-19-2016, 06:54 PM)Junglejuice Wrote: I don't believe he is the one blight on our secondary like some believe.

That's Chykie Brown's job.

[treee]

(08-19-2016, 06:57 PM)Beaker Wrote: That's Chykie Brown's job.

Or as some call him, the reincarnation of Chris Crocker.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-19-2016, 05:42 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: I think they are taking his past into consideration. Not just the preseason game. The preseason game just reinforced their idea of Kirk.

Fred doesn't grasp context....

(08-19-2016, 05:54 PM)treee Wrote: Oh no Kirkpatrick gave up some plays to a 10/mil a year WR he's doomed. Our secondary is doomed. We're all doomed.

Some?  He gave up every play on their opening drive....a la Pittsburgh.  He's making what....7.5?  I wouldn't call him a bargain.....but he sure plays like he was plucked from the bargain bin.

(08-19-2016, 06:50 PM)Captain Happy Pants Wrote: I didn't read everyone's post but he did get burned a lot against Jones.  Seemed like he was getting picked on like a rookie

Exactly.

(08-19-2016, 06:54 PM)Junglejuice Wrote: This.

Even the best get abused by the better receivers sometimes.

Dre is not Pac Man but hes def more than serviceable and I don't believe he is the one blight on our secondary like some believe.

He gets abused by the best ALL the time....and by good most of the time....mediocre some of the time.  Before we paid him that money and lost Nelson....who would you call the weak link?  He's serviceable....that's it.

[fredtoast]

(08-19-2016, 05:42 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: I think they are taking his past into consideration. Not just the preseason game. The preseason game just reinforced their idea of Kirk.

But their idea of how he played in the past was wrong.

I've posted stats that prove that he is not as bad as many people here claim.  I don't give much credence to message board opinions because I have seen so many fans be so wrong about players like Justin Smith, Leon hall, Whitworth, Dalton, Andre Smith, Kyle Cooke, etc. 

[fredtoast]

(08-19-2016, 11:19 PM)Wyche Wrote: He gets abused by the best ALL the time....and by good most of the time....mediocre some of the time.

This is a complete lie.

Dre played against the opposing teams #1 WR many times last year because our CBs play the same side of the field pretty much all of the time, yet he still finished in the top 32 in many metrics that show how well a CB plays, e.g. "completion percentage allowed", "average yards per target", and "success rate".

I'll take facts over message board myths any day.  None of these haters will admit it now, but most of them are the same ones who claimed Justin Smith was garbage, Whitworth could not handle speed rushers, Leon Hall could not cover fats receivers, and Andy Dalton had a noodle arm.  

[fredtoast]

(08-19-2016, 11:19 PM)Wyche Wrote:  He gave up every play on their opening drive....a la Pittsburgh.

Who do you think gave up the TD on that opening drive against Pittsburgh?

[BengalChris]

(08-17-2016, 01:42 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Same as last year.  Play like one of the top 32 CBs in the league.  He is not our #1 CB because Adam Jones is better, but overall on an average NFL team he would be the #1 CB.

On sucky defense he'd be a #1. On a good defense, well, he's a #2 many fans want replaced.

[fredtoast]

(08-20-2016, 11:57 AM)BengalChris Wrote: On sucky defense he'd be a #1. On a good defense, well, he's a #2 many fans want replaced.

You can spin it any way you want it, but the fact is we have a top 32 CB who is our #2 CB.  That is way better than most teams.

[BengalChris]

(08-20-2016, 12:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You can spin it any way you want it, but the fact is we have a top 32 CB who is our #2 CB.  That is way better than most teams.

Let's face it, the only reason anyone would call him a top 32 corner is because he's at the bottom of that 32. If he were #15 or something like that you'd be calling him a top 15 corner.

It's sort of a dumb thing to brag about. Since there are basically 64 starting corners, which makes #32 "average" by definition.

We have an average corner! Yeaaaaa, whoopeeee, aren't we cool? Come watch us play with "average"!

It's really too bad that Willie Jackson got hurt cause he's got the speed and ball skills to push Kirkpatrick out.

[fredtoast]

(08-20-2016, 01:15 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Let's face it, the only reason anyone would call him a top 32 corner is because he's at the bottom of that 32. If he were #15 or something like that you'd be calling him a top 15 corner.

Dre was #18 in yards per target
Dre was #19 in passes defended
Dre was #3 in solo tackles
Dre was between #18 and #24 in pass completion allowed

(08-20-2016, 01:15 PM)BengalChris Wrote: It's sort of a dumb thing to brag about. Since there are basically 64 starting corners, which makes #32 "average" by definition.

The #3 CB now plays more than 50% of the snaps for pretty much every team in the league.  the rankings I quote include 75 CBs who either had 8 starts or 50 targets.

(08-20-2016, 01:15 PM)BengalChris Wrote: We have an average corner! Yeaaaaa, whoopeeee, aren't we cool? Come watch us play with "average"!

We have a top 32 CB playing #2 for us.  How many other teams in the league can make that claim?

Seriously, you squeal for Dre to be replaced, but he is better than many #1 CBs and almost all the #2's.  You just do not have realistic expectations.  It is not even close to "average" to have a top 32 CB as the #2 Cb on any team. 

[Derrick]

(08-19-2016, 11:19 PM)Wyche Wrote: Fred doesn't grasp context....


Some?  He gave up every play on their opening drive....a la Pittsburgh.  He's making what....7.5?  I wouldn't call him a bargain.....but he sure plays like he was plucked from the bargain bin.


Exactly.


He gets abused by the best ALL the time....and by good most of the time....mediocre some of the time.  Before we paid him that money and lost Nelson....who would you call the weak link?  He's serviceable....that's it.

Not exactly a first round DB. Oh wait, he was.

[treee]

(08-20-2016, 03:55 PM)Derrick Wrote: Not exactly a first round DB. Oh wait, he was.

The fault in your logic is using his draft position to evaluate his current ability on the team. Is he playing at the level that you would hope a 1st round DB would x amount of years after they're drafted? No, and I absolutely agree with you on that level. Is he absolutely good enough to be the 2nd CB on a competitive team? Yes. He is. 

[fredtoast]

(08-20-2016, 03:55 PM)Derrick Wrote: Not exactly a first round DB. Oh wait, he was.

Not sure what you mean by this.

Dre is playing better than a lot of other CBs taken in the first round since he entered the league.  But there have been other CBs taken in later rounds that are better.  So what exactly do you mean by "first round CB"?

[BengalChris]

(08-20-2016, 01:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dre was #18 in yards per target
Dre was #19 in passes defended
Dre was #3 in solo tackles
Dre was between #18 and #24 in pass completion allowed




The #3 CB now plays more than 50% of the snaps for pretty much every team in the league.  the rankings I quote include 75 CBs who either had 8 starts or 50 targets.


We have a top 32 CB playing #2 for us.  How many other teams in the league can make that claim?

Seriously, you squeal for Dre to be replaced, but he is better than many #1 CBs and almost all the #2's.  You just do not have realistic expectations.  It is not even close to "average" to have a top 32 CB as the #2 Cb on any team. 

Hum, he's 18th, 19th, 3rd in tackles (presumably because he gets targeted more than average). Blah, blah, blah. He's the 2nd corner which means he's spending more time guarding the other team's second guy. Antonio Brown ate him alive.

Is he better than a guy on IR or injured who isn't on the field? Yes, absolutely!

Do we need him this year? Yes!

But do I want him phased out for better talent? Yes, definitely!

[fredtoast]

(08-20-2016, 08:20 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Hum, he's 18th, 19th, 3rd in tackles (presumably because he gets targeted more than average). Blah, blah, blah. He's the 2nd corner which means he's spending more time guarding the other team's second guy. 

No he isn't.  Bengals play their corners on the same side of the field all the time no matter where the #1 guy lines up.

[*bfine32*]

(08-20-2016, 11:43 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But their idea of how he played in the past was wrong.

I've posted stats that prove that he is not as bad as many people here claim.  I don't give much credence to message board opinions because I have seen so many fans be so wrong about players like Justin Smith, Leon hall, Whitworth, Dalton, Andre Smith, Kyle Cooke, etc. 

Hey, I also remember folks being so wrong Keith Rivers, Stacey Andrews, Dez Briscoe, Chase Coffman, ect....

[Brownshoe]

It's silly to say that Kirkpatrick is around the 165th best CB in the league. Jones barley makes it in the top 10 and he's a shit ton better than Kirkpatrick.

[TGISunday]

No one spends a first round pick and picks up a fifth year option on a dude to be considered "among the top 32" cbs in the league, as per some seriously questionable criteria.

Kirkpatrick isn't garbage, but he's not consistent. And he's not markedly better in improving his deficiencies that have always hampered him. These are concerning issues. Selective stats of questionable merit do nothing to alleviate those concerns.

Also, Justin Smith, Andrew Whitworth, and Leon Hall have nothing to do with this conversation. Consequently, neither does Russell Bodine, Nate Livings, or Stacy Andrews. So let's just leave these entirely unrelated players out of the thread.

[treee]

(08-21-2016, 01:06 AM)TGISunday Wrote: No one spends a first round pick and picks up a fifth year option on a dude to be considered "among the top 32" cbs in the league, as per some seriously questionable criteria.

Kirkpatrick isn't garbage, but he's not consistent. And he's not markedly better in improving his deficiencies that have always hampered him. These are concerning issues. Selective stats of questionable merit do nothing to alleviate those concerns.

Also, Justin Smith, Andrew Whitworth, and Leon Hall have nothing to do with this conversation.  Consequently, neither does Russell Bodine, Nate Livings, or Stacy Andrews.  So let's just leave these entirely unrelated players out of the thread.

This is a fair statement and a concern that I believe is fully valid. It seems he has plateaued at "okay" and sometimes he can even elevate his game to pretty damn good. But he is not consistent whatsoever and we really need him to be if we have a chance at being a contender this year.