Gender Affirmation Surgery

[BFritz21]

If having a penis or vagina doesn’t determine gender, how does having said penis or vagina removed confirm gender?

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

Well if you believe Gender is something you feel inside of you then I guess that's why. You can make your outside flesh match your inner feeling.

Personally I think it's a dumb thing to do, it seems to come with loads of other medical issues. I'd advocate for having people become comfortable with how they are born rather than encourage they alter themselves.

[Arturo Bandini]

Too much deep thoughts for me !

[treee]

Sex is a set of physical characteristics that you are born with. Gender is a social construct that encompasses a ton of things from how you act, what clothing you wear, and more generally, how you interact with the world around you.

'Gender norms' are how society expects people of a certain gender to fit into society. These norms have shifted and changed countless times throughout human civilization.

'Gender affirming care' is a treatment for 'gender dysphoria'. Gender affirming care actually encompasses a lot of things, from 'pronouns', to physical presentation, and yes sometimes includes surgery. Some, none, or all of these things that fit under gender affirming care may or may not be necessary to treat gender dysphoria.

You can't exactly grow a human body that matches your gender identity and then plop your brain in there so gender affirming care is the best we have right now.

[StrictlyBiz]

(08-08-2023, 05:17 AM)treee Wrote: Sex is a set of physical characteristics that you are born with. Gender is a social construct that encompasses a ton of things from how you act, what clothing you wear, and more generally, how you interact with the world around you.

Sex and gender have been used interchangeably for at least 700 years, if not longer. It is only within the last 50 that the idea that they are different has been put forth. And only in the last 5-10 that it has been seen as fact or acceptable. 

I refuse to make the distinction. They are interchangeable. There are two genders and two sexes. 

I speculate that this separation is necessary when pushing the idea that there are "X" number of genders. (it's constantly changing)

Quote:'Gender affirming care' is a treatment for 'gender dysphoria'. Gender affirming care actually encompasses a lot of things, from 'pronouns', to physical presentation, and yes sometimes includes surgery. Some, none, or all of these things that fit under gender affirming care may or may not be necessary to treat gender dysphoria.

No, I don't see using proper pronouns as 'care.' 
It may not seem like a big deal, but including language as care opens up a whole can of worms that will undoubtedly lead 1A discussions. 

[Belsnickel]

(08-08-2023, 06:23 AM)StrictlyBiz Wrote: Sex and gender have been used interchangeably for at least 700 years, if not longer. It is only within the last 50 that the idea that they are different has been put forth. And only in the last 5-10 that it has been seen as fact or acceptable. 

This is false. There is archaeological evidence of transgenderism in societies dating back at least 4000 years with speculation based on the prevalence and structures in place that it dated back even longer. We have records of it even in Jamestown during the 1620s. Gender specifically is a cultural construct and how it is defined is based completely on the societal views of it. Western European Christian views, which have been exported globally thanks to colonialism, have been antagonistic to the idea of transgenderism which has resulted in the views you espouse. However, they are not universal in their existence and they are certainly not ancient. Even Judaism, the foundation for Christian beliefs, acknowledges transgenderism and more than two genders.

(08-08-2023, 06:23 AM)StrictlyBiz Wrote: I refuse to make the distinction. They are interchangeable. There are two genders and two sexes. 

This is also false. There are more than two genders, there are more than two sexes, and they are not interchangeable.

[Dill]

(08-08-2023, 03:34 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: If having a penis or vagina doesn’t determine gender, how does having said penis or vagina removed confirm gender?

Has someone somewhere said it does? 

[GMDino]

Why do so many people care what is in someone else's pants and how they live their personal lives?

[StrictlyBiz]

(08-08-2023, 06:49 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is false. There is archaeological evidence of transgenderism in societies dating back at least 4000 years with speculation based on the prevalence and structures in place that it dated back even longer. We have records of it even in Jamestown during the 1620s.

I never said transgenderism didn't exist. You're conflating me saying that there are two genders with me saying that transgenderism doesn't exist. I never said that. I said that sex and gender have been used interchangeably for over 700 years. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/ng0800_373a

Quote:Gender specifically is a cultural construct and how it is defined is based completely on the societal views of it. Western European Christian views, which have been exported globally thanks to colonialism, have been antagonistic to the idea of transgenderism which has resulted in the views you espouse. 

I can't disagree with that. Of course I am the result of the cultural construct that I am living in. We all are. Forgive me for living in the era in which I was born.

[GMDino]

(08-08-2023, 09:01 AM)StrictlyBiz Wrote: I never said transgenderism didn't exist. You're conflating me saying that there are two genders with me saying that transgenderism doesn't exist. I never said that. I said that sex and gender have been used interchangeably for over 700 years. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/ng0800_373a




I can't disagree with that. Of course I am the result of the cultural construct that I am living in. We all are. Forgive me for living in the era in which I was born.

This isn't a shot at you Biz...your line there just reminded me of a meme I saw just last night.



It got me thinking about a conversation I had at dinner before I saw the above where we were talking about the kind of jokes we made in the 70's and 80's and what we "could say" that our kids tell us we "can't say" anymore.

I have very mixed feelings (as I usually do) about this, but in the end I respect others when I am in public or around people who I feel would not understand where *I* am coming from and I am more careful with my speech.  But we're human so mistakes are made.

Even back then people got offended by say Polish jokes...so I didn't tell them to those people.

Society is changing again and we either change with it or look like dinosaurs.

[basballguy]

(08-08-2023, 06:49 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is false. There is archaeological evidence of transgenderism in societies dating back at least 4000 years with speculation based on the prevalence and structures in place that it dated back even longer. We have records of it even in Jamestown during the 1620s. Gender specifically is a cultural construct and how it is defined is based completely on the societal views of it. Western European Christian views, which have been exported globally thanks to colonialism, have been antagonistic to the idea of transgenderism which has resulted in the views you espouse. However, they are not universal in their existence and they are certainly not ancient. Even Judaism, the foundation for Christian beliefs, acknowledges transgenderism and more than two genders.


This is also false. There are more than two genders, there are more than two sexes, and they are not interchangeable.

It’s crazy how you’re a “trust the science” guy for Covid but you throw science out the window for this.

[basballguy]

(08-08-2023, 09:00 AM)GMDino Wrote: Why do so many people care what is in someone else's pants and how they live their personal lives?

It’s hard when it’s thrown in your face every single day whether you care about it or not.

[GMDino]

(08-08-2023, 09:15 AM)basballguy Wrote: It’s crazy how you’re a “trust the science” guy for Covid but you throw science out the window for this.

(08-08-2023, 09:17 AM)basballguy Wrote: It’s hard when it’s thrown in your face every single day whether you care about it or not.

What is posted *IS* the science.

If it was truly "in your face" every day you would have read about that by now as it has been discussed here and in the real world outside of this board a lot.

Frankly I never see it unless I'm looking at news sites or this board.  Maybe I don't get out enough.

[Belsnickel]

(08-08-2023, 09:01 AM)StrictlyBiz Wrote: I never said transgenderism didn't exist. You're conflating me saying that there are two genders with me saying that transgenderism doesn't exist. I never said that. I said that sex and gender have been used interchangeably for over 700 years. 

https://www.nature.com/articles/ng0800_373a

I mean, the word gender is only ~700 years old and at that time was a grammatical subclass (which is also the primary definition, today). It was in the 15th century that is became used in place of sex because, well, sex is bad, mm'kay?

Etymology aside, the words themselves aren't important considering the relative newness of the English language as well as the ever evolving state of language. The import rests with the concepts. Since transgenderism is the modern term of one's sex and gender, as we define them today, not matching, the concept of this is what matters. The language has evolved in an effort to describe the concept in an understandable way.

(08-08-2023, 09:01 AM)StrictlyBiz Wrote: I can't disagree with that. Of course I am the result of the cultural construct that I am living in. We all are. Forgive me for living in the era in which I was born.

Learning and evolving is a part of living in a society.

(08-08-2023, 09:15 AM)basballguy Wrote: It’s crazy how you’re a “trust the science” guy for Covid but you throw science out the window for this.

I am actually describing the science on this matter. There is a reason that what I am saying is how it is described in all of the technical writings on the subject.

[*Nately120*]

(08-08-2023, 09:17 AM)basballguy Wrote: It’s hard when it’s thrown in your face every single day whether you care about it or not.

As a former "angry young man" myself, I assure you that browsing the high school halls and then facebook and seeing so many people I know shoving their heterosexuality down my throat is what really upset me.  Everyone was getting girlfriends and then getting married and having kids and I was a schlub getting older and deeper in debt.

I mean, damn near 90% of pictures on that thing are people with their wives and kids just shoving their successful heterosexuality in my face.

Look at incels...they're not so keen on the LGBTQ+ folks I'd wager, but it is seeing other straight men and women hooking up and getting married that really makes their piss boil.  Then if you are a woman and you aren't married by the time you're 25 or so, people start getting on your ass about it.  We're obsessed with heterosexuality and on social media, in politics, advertisements and so on...shoved down our throats...and we aren't handling it well.  Ah, but what do we handle well?

[basballguy]

(08-08-2023, 09:24 AM)GMDino Wrote: What is posted *IS* the science.

If it was truly "in your face" every day you would have read about that by now as it has been discussed here and in the real world outside of this board a lot.

Frankly I never see it unless I'm looking at news sites or this board.  Maybe I don't get out enough.

I didn’t realize the science had evolved to where we can alter our chromosomes. Shit my bad

And yes, you don’t get out enough. :)

[basballguy]

(08-08-2023, 09:46 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I am actually describing the science on this matter. There is a reason that what I am saying is how it is described in all of the technical writings on the subject.

All the technical writings? So you’re saying there’s no “technical writing” out there that says otherwise?

This must be the first time in recorded history that “technical writings” have been wrong.

What a time to be alive!

[KillerGoose]

(08-08-2023, 09:15 AM)basballguy Wrote: It’s crazy how you’re a “trust the science” guy for Covid but you throw science out the window for this.

What he is describing is the current science on the subject. Gender is used to refer to the social constructs of male and female. The WHO discusses it here.

Quote:Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed.  This includes norms, behaviours and roles associated with being a woman, man, girl or boy, as well as relationships with each other. As a social construct, gender varies from society to society and can change over time.

It is the idea behind a statement like "Be a real man." Many people have an idea of what a man (or woman) should look like, sound like and act like. If you ask 100 people, you are very likely to get several different answers. 

[*Synric*]

(08-08-2023, 10:04 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: What he is describing is the current science on the subject. Gender is used to refer to the social constructs of male and female. The WHO discusses it here.


It is the idea behind a statement like "Be a real man." Many people have an idea of what a man (or woman) should look like, sound like and act like. If you ask 100 people, you are very likely to get several different answers. 

The Definition of Gender is "Kind, breed, sex, derived from the Latin Ablative case of Genus, Like Genere Natus which refers to birth."

The only society part was attached to the words Gender Roles in the 50s and were shorten in the 70s to just Gender but the definition of gender is the above which is what we learned in health class in 90s.

Edit: In fact the definition didnt change until 2020 when the transgender community got onto the Oxford University about the Roles being "Sexiest" in the dictionary lol

[basballguy]

(08-08-2023, 09:48 AM)Nately120 Wrote: As a former "angry young man" myself, I assure you that browsing the high school halls and then facebook and seeing so many people I know shoving their heterosexuality down my throat is what really upset me.  Everyone was getting girlfriends and then getting married and having kids and I was a schlub getting older and deeper in debt.

I mean, damn near 90% of pictures on that thing are people with their wives and kids just shoving their successful heterosexuality in my face.

Look at incels...they're not so keen on the LGBTQ+ folks I'd wager, but it is seeing other straight men and women hooking up and getting married that really makes their piss boil.  Then if you are a woman and you aren't married by the time you're 25 or so, people start getting on your ass about it.  We're obsessed with heterosexuality and on social media, in politics, advertisements and so on...shoved down our throats...and we aren't handling it well.  Ah, but what do we handle well?

haha...i didn't create the thread, i'm just popping in here saying I get what Brad is saying.  

Look man, I bounce back and forth between Dallas and Denver monthly.  It's literally in your face between protests, parades, random public events (like music concerts)....it doesn't affect my life, I don't care....but it does get exhausting having it thrown in your face whether you care about it or not.  

If i go to the movies, I don't need a pre-movie ad asking me to donate to random group that supports random social cause about sexuality...yes that shit happens.  

Ads like that are on billboards, the sides of buildings, websites we go to....ya dude, it's thrown in our face (like everything else is)

If I go to a concert, I don't need the artists forcing their message on me when I go to hear their music (I guess I could just close my eyes?)

Here's some pics off my actual phone....this isn't specific to genderism or whatever the hell it's being called these days but this is just an example of how lots of this sexuality shit is thrown in our faces....added bonus pics unrelated to sexuality. 





I also have a video of another one of these girls dancing around with a body suit and a head coming out of her belly like in Total Recall.  

It's everywhere...I'd love to have your blissful ignorance.  :)