HOO WUN??

[GMDino]

Quote:Chris Wallace: (39:04)
And I want to get to another subject, which is the issue of protests in many cities that have turned violent in Portland, Oregon, especially we had more than a 100 straight days of protests, which I think you would agree, you talk about peaceful protests. Many of those turned into riots. Mr. Vice-president you say that people who commit crimes should be held accountable. The question I have though is as the democratic nominee, and earlier tonight, you said that you are the Democratic Party right now, have you ever called the Democratic Mayor of Portland or the Democratic Governor of Oregon and said, “Hey, you got to stop this, bring in the National Guard, do whatever it takes, but you’d stop the days and months of violence in Portland.”


Vice President Joe Biden: (39:50)
I don’t hold public office. Now I am a former vice president. I’ve made it clear. I’ve made it clear in my public statements that the violence should be prosecuted. It should be prosecuted and anyone who committed it should be prosecuted.

Chris Wallace: (40:02)
But you’ve never called for the people…

President Donald J. Trump: (40:02)
He’s never done that.

Chris Wallace: (40:02)
Excuse me, sir. You had never called for the leaders in Portland and in Oregon to call and bring in the National Guard and knock off a 100 days of riots.

Vice President Joe Biden: (40:15)
They can in fact take care of it if he just stay out of the way.

President Donald J. Trump: (40:19)
Oh really? I sent in the US Marshalls to get the killer of a young man in the middle of the street and they shot him for three days Portland didn’t do anything. I sent in the US Marshals they took care of business.

Chris Wallace: (40:33)
Go ahead sir.

Vice President Joe Biden: (40:34)
And by the way his own former spokesperson said, “Riots and chaos and violence help he cause.” That’s what this is all about.

President Donald J. Trump: (40:43)
I don’t know who said that.

Vice President Joe Biden: (40:44)
I do.

President Donald J. Trump: (40:45)
Who?

Vice President Joe Biden: (40:46)
I think Kellyanne Conway.

President Donald J. Trump: (40:48)
I don’t think she said that.

Vice President Joe Biden: (40:48)
She said that.

President Donald J. Trump: (40:49)
I don’t think so.

Vice President Joe Biden: (40:50)
Here’s the point, the point is that that’s why he keeps trying to rile everything up. He doesn’t want to calm things down instead of going in and talking to people and saying, “Let’s get everybody together. Figure out how to deal with this.” What’s he do? He just pours gasoline in the fire constantly and every single solitary time.

Chris Wallace: (41:10)
Okay. And to end this, button up this segment I’m going to give you a minute to answer, sir. You have repeatedly criticized…

President Donald J. Trump: (41:16)
Does it mean I have to answer his stuff.

Chris Wallace: (41:17)
You have repeatedly…

President Donald J. Trump: (41:18)
Wait a second, you have made a statement.

Chris Wallace: (41:19)
You’ve been talking back and forth. I’m asking you.

President Donald J. Trump: (41:22)
I would love to end it.

Chris Wallace: (41:24)
You know sir if you want to switch seats we could very quickly can do that.

President Donald J. Trump: (41:28)
I’ll send in the National Guard, it would be over. That’d be no problem. But I don’t want to accept the National Guard.

Chris Wallace: (41:33)
You have repeatedly criticized the vice president for not specifically calling out Antifa and other left wing extremist groups. But are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacists and militia group and to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities as we saw in Kenosha and as we’ve seen in Portland.

President Donald J. Trump: (41:57)
Sure, I’m will to do that.

Chris Wallace: (41:59)
Are you prepared specifically to do it.

President Donald J. Trump: (42:00)
I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing not from the right wing.

Chris Wallace: (42:04)
But what are you saying?

President Donald J. Trump: (42:06)
I’m willing to do anything. I want to see peace.

Chris Wallace: (42:08)
Well, do it, sir.

Vice President Joe Biden: (42:09)
Say it, do it say it.

President Donald J. Trump: (42:10)
What do you want to call them? Give me a name, give me a name, go ahead who do you want me to condemn.

Chris Wallace: (42:14)
White supremacist and right-wing militia.

President Donald J. Trump: (42:18)
Proud Boys, stand back and stand by. But I’ll tell you what somebody’s got to do something about Antifa and the left because this is not a right wing problem this is a left wing.

Vice President Joe Biden: (42:28)
He’s own FBI Director said unlike white supremacist, Antifa is an idea not an organization-

President Donald J. Trump: (42:35)
Oh you got to be kidding me.

Vice President Joe Biden: (42:36)
… not a militia. That’s what his FBI Director said.

President Donald J. Trump: (42:41)
Well, then you know what, he’s wrong.

Chris Wallace: (42:42)
We’re done, sir. Moving onto the next… [crosstalk 00:42:46]

President Donald J. Trump: (42:46)
Antifa is bad.

Vice President Joe Biden: (42:47)
Every body in your administration tells you the true, it’s a bad idea. You have no idea about anything.

President Donald J. Trump: (42:53)
You know what, Antifa is a dangerous radical group.

Chris Wallace: (42:56)
All right, gentlemen we’re now moving onto the Trump-Biden record.

President Donald J. Trump: (42:58)
And you ought to be careful of them, they’ll over throw you.

There's a moment there when Trump is saying "I'll say anything"  "Give a name I'll condemn them" that leads me to believe he doesn't even know what the subject it but he has his attack points about "the left" and "antifa" that he can't get past for fear of losing his base.  And then, when given a specific group...he says "stand back and stand by".  

So telling.

He is incapable of sincere thought.

And yes, he once read a prepared statement condemning a few right wing hate groups in an attempt to stave off his "good people on both sides" mistake.

[hollodero]

(09-30-2020, 09:56 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Yeah, I was setting up the argument about people being born with penises identifying as female, but no one bit. 


Personally, I think Trump had no idea he was telling them to "stand by" in the way in which everyone is thinking he meant. I'm sure, he'll come out today with a 'what I meant was' statement. The problem is that he DID tell them to 'stand by' and he did it on national TV. Yes, he told them to stand down first, but he told them to 'stand by' and they're running with it.  

For one, "stand down and stand by" is not much better than only saying "stand by". To me, it comes across as saying something akin to "it's not time yet, but be prepared".

What he meant, I do not know, but my interpretation seems reasonable enough to me. Also, I do have some experience with dog whistles like that from my own country and its Naziesque right-wing party. They also "never meant it that way" and "the evil media distorts words/takes things out of context" etc. when they deliberately said Third Reich-friendly stuff. Imho it's in the right wing populist's playbook (even though ours are distinctly more Naziesque than Trump is).

[*PhilHos*]

(09-30-2020, 10:28 AM)GMDino Wrote: There's a moment there when Trump is saying "I'll say anything"  "Give a name I'll condemn them" that leads me to believe he doesn't even know what the subject it but he has his attack points about "the left" and "antifa" that he can't get past for fear of losing his base.  And then, when given a specific group...he says "stand back and stand by".  

So telling.

He is incapable of sincere thought.

And yes, he once read a prepared statement condemning a few right wing hate groups in an attempt to stave off his "good people on both sides" mistake.

Saying he's insincere in his denouncement is not the same as saying he never denounced them. And people are claiming he never denounced them which is just not true.

[masonbengals fan]

(09-30-2020, 12:08 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: All I know is America lost.

What I will say is that I find it amazing that there will be people that genuinely believe that Trump killed it during the debate.

While Biden was less than stellar (name calling and his little flip flop on the green new deal stuck out) I think that by any actual standards of preparation and professionalism he was ahead of Trump.

 This... Biden did better than expected and Trump did pretty much what everyone expected.

 At this point I don't see how anyone could be undecided. If a debate performance is you're tipping point I'd ask you where you have been for the last few years. 

 This country is at a low point for presidential candidates & that was never more clear than last night.

 I want a debate where each touts their ideas, accomplishments & what they intend to work towards in the future.

 And actually answer questions when asked directly.

 Is that too much to ask ?

[BigPapaKain]

(09-30-2020, 09:47 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Denounce does not equal reject. Denounce - "publicly declare to be wrong or evil."

Trump has denounced white supremacy. Therefore it would be factually incorrect to claim he has not.

My shot was at the Proud Boys.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-30-2020, 10:52 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: My shot was at the Proud Boys.

Carry on, my wayward son.

[*Nately120*]

(09-30-2020, 10:52 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: My shot was at the Proud Boys.

Maybe they'll be Trump's security if he loses and eatablishes his own society ala Jonestown?

[GMDino]

Here's the other way I'm looking at it:

If Trump had been even civil.  Even if he didn't answer a question or name a policy going forward.  Had he been civil without the shouting and interrupting he would have looked better and Biden would have looked the same.

That is how you know Biden won.  

[jj22]

We are living in historic times. If you just arrived and were asked who is the leader of the free world while watching that the answer would be jaw dropping given the strength and (old) values of this nation.

I give Trump supporters and defenders a lot of criticism for pushing his values/character as if they are ours and should be Americas, but I was getting messages last night from those who I know saying "it's over", "he's lost", and I have to credit them for realizing this isn't the actions and character of an American President (even if he is president).

Of course they had to say Biden shouldn't have called him a clown (and I had to quickly remind them don't be putting higher standards on the Dem to not be able to call someone a clown after they supported Trumps name calling for years), but that was really all they could say about Biden's performance and for that alone Biden won. Or Wun.

Biden's did best when he (and only he it seemed) remembered there were people watching (suffering through) at home and spoke directly to us. That was significant and powerful, and was a nice touch.

[jj22]

(09-30-2020, 11:14 AM)GMDino Wrote: Here's the other way I'm looking at it:

If Trump had been even civil.  Even if he didn't answer a question or name a policy going forward.  Had he been civil without the shouting and interrupting he would have looked better and Biden would have looked the same.

That is how you know Biden won.  

This. For the soft Biden voters who just can't take voting for "last nights" Trump. All Trump had to do is give them a reason to vote for him without feeling embarrassed. Or as I've said put their character values in question. He wasn't able to do that.

His 2016 debate performances, while still a little aggressive, was at least respectful to the process. 

Last night he trashed the remaining norms we had as a country as it related to our politics. 

If the goal was to let Biden talk himself into trouble or a gaffe, I'm just not sure why Trumps handlers didn't prepare him to just let Biden speak? I think they wanted to fluster Biden and get him to lose his train of thought so they can claim dementia, but Trump didn't even give him a chance to most of the time. The overwhelm Biden non stop to fluster him approach didn't work if that was their goal. Biden barely got the chance to have a gaffe, misspeak, etc.

[*Nately120*]

Biden addressing People at home while Trump was focused on bickering with the 2 guys in shouting distance was significant to me.

[hollodero]

(09-30-2020, 11:23 AM)jj22 Wrote: We are living in historic times. If you just arrived and were asked who is the leader of the free world

Yeah I feel like a member of the free world; and while I used to accept the US president as leader of said free world before, I do not accept Trump as such and I feel Americans need to retire that term.

[Dill]

Yow! On live with Hallie Jackson, Peter Navarro (Director of the Office of Trade and Manufacturing Policy)putting the entire debate into perspective with FACTS!

"Wallace interrupted Trump 76 times. He only interrupted Biden 15 times."

Now you Dems tell me how the media is not slanted against Trump.

Navarro says Wallace was basically serving not as a referee but as the "cut man" in Biden's corner, cutting Trump off to block his answers.

So Trump was actually debating two people at once.

Wallace screwed up Trump's response to the "Will you denounce white supremacy?" question by cutting him off.
The president's stance on white supremacy has always been clear. "Chris Wallace let that thing get out of hand."

[Dill]

(09-30-2020, 11:29 AM)jj22 Wrote: If the goal was to let Biden talk himself into trouble or a gaffe, I'm just not sure why Trumps handlers didn't prepare him to just let Biden speak? I think they wanted to fluster Biden and get him to lose his train of thought so they can claim dementia, but Trump didn't even give him a chance to most of the time. The overwhelm Biden non stop to fluster him approach didn't work if that was their goal. Biden barely got the chance to have a gaffe, misspeak, etc.

What reason do have to believe that Trump's handlers did not have a reasonable plan, taking into account your suggestions?

I'd bet a month's salary he got all kinds of useful advice which, if followed, would have made the debate even at least.

But he does not listen to doctors or generals or advisors. It does not matter what they told him.

Even if he endorsed such a plan, he lacks the self discipline to carry it out.

Also, think of this from Trump's perspective--He won that last election his way, doing everything politicians weren't supposed to do ("Mexican rapists! Muslim ban!). So why should he listen to those people now. Why should he listen to anyone?

That is what Trump voters are voting for--someone who doesn't listen to advice because he always already knows and makes his own rules as he goes.  Undisciplined, unhinged, focused on Antifa and Hunter Biden.

[jj22]

Wallace shouldn't have (or had to) interjected himself as much but Trump was out of control, and Biden was rarely able to speak uninterrupted. I can see how they say Wallace acted to try to quiet Trump on behalf of Biden (even tho it was only when Trump was speaking out of turn, and he wouldn't let Biden respond to some attacks either helping Trump), but could Biden really be as aggressive with Trump to get his time and silence him? He did take heat for calling him a clown and telling him to "shut up" so there really wasn't much Biden could do to control Trump without getting further in the gutter and Americans weren't going to have that.

Biden had no choice but to hope Wallace could get Trump under control. Unfortunately, Wallace couldn't.

Trump was as unhinged as I've ever seen last night. Like embarrassingly so for the POTUS.

[Millhouse]

(09-30-2020, 10:52 AM)masonbengals fan Wrote:  This... Biden did better than expected and Trump did pretty much what everyone expected.

 At this point I don't see how anyone could be undecided. If a debate performance is you're tipping point I'd ask you where you have been for the last few years. 

 This country is at a low point for presidential candidates & that was never more clear than last night.

 I want a debate where each touts their ideas, accomplishments & what they intend to work towards in the future.

 And actually answer questions when asked directly.

 Is that too much to ask ?

It would have been a proper debate if Trump didn't act like an immature ass. 

For me, Biden wun because he came off acting Presidential, something our country needs and as I said last night I think a lot of middle ground Americans want back. 

[jj22]

I think if you are on the fence as to who wun, you have to ask yourself, did Biden look like he had Dementia? If the answer is no, Trump lost. That is their main attack on Biden and has been for the last 4 months. All of their eggs are in that basket....

[*bfine32*]

IMO Biden was clearly the Winner. His only problems were when he called Trump a Clown and a Racist. I also didn't like how he used Beau to deflect Hunter, but that's probably more of a "me' thing.

Trump could not have done worse if he were trying.

It seemed trump tried to rile up Biden, but was much more successful in riling up Wallace.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-30-2020, 10:06 AM)Dill Wrote: Huunhhh? What?  "Western chauvinism and white supremacy"?

Whaaa . . . um  well er which groups do you mean? Give me some names.

What do you want me to say and I'll say it?   

You’re so right to ask for specific names of specific white supremacist groups you want to denounce. The last thing you want to do is paint with too broad a brush and denounce all white supremacist groups.

[*Nately120*]

(09-30-2020, 12:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: IMO Biden was clearly the Winner. His only problems were when he called Trump a Clown and a Racist. I also didn't like how he used Beau to deflect Hunter, but that's probably more of a "me' thing.

Trump could not have done worse if he were trying.

It seemed trump tried to rile up Biden, but was much more successful in riling up Wallace.

I think Wallace was a little taken aback at how determined Trump was to just shout over everyone.  Trump turned the Trump dial up to 11 last night.