Hamas Attacks Israel: 70 Israelis, 198 Palestinians Dead

[Dill]

(10-08-2023, 10:49 AM)Sled21 Wrote: That's actually not an argument, it is a fact. Iran didn't waste any time sending Hamas those rockets. And now the Hezbos are attacking

A "fact" established by whom? where? If you've read something about how and when rockets were transferred,
I'd appreciate a link to help me keep up.

For now, I'm pretty sure the rockets used by Hamas were already in Gaza, probably have been for months or years.

I don't think Iran has actually gotten the 6 billion yet, has it?

I don't see a Biden--> 6 billion--> Iran--> Hamas --> attack on Israel connection here yet.

While we are on the subject of Iran, they are clearly backers of Hamas, but it is not clear that they are
"behind" the current attack, as some news commentators are wondering. I can see how it might help them
in some ways, but it's also a great risk for them. And Hamas is not a stable/controllable partner in the
dangerous game of Middle East conflict.

[Dill]

(10-08-2023, 10:47 AM)basballguy Wrote: What terrorist attack isn’t a failure of intelligence?  It’s like saying if a reckless driver hits my car it was a massive failure on my behalf for not driving better.  

It’s low hanging fruit to focus on that aspect.  It’s a deflection.

Fruit? Deflection from what?

As for the driving analogy--it seems to miss the point of intelligence collection altogether,

which is to discover "reckless drivers" so they can be neutralized before they hit anyone. 

Intel personnel are trained and paid to do exactly that one thing. 

They can't say "not my fault for not driving better."  

In this case, Israel didn't see a school bus coming. So concerned allies like the US wonder how that is possible.

It means there are aspects of the conflict terrain which have been completely invisible to them and the US.

And it's a question/concern for people who analyzing causes, nothing to do with "blame" outside Mossad.
(Inside Mossad, and probably Netanyahu's government, there will be blame, though they won't be
confusing their own people with Hamas as a "cause.")

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

In this thread moderates and conservatives universally condemn a vile terrorist organization and its deliberate targeting of civilians. Meanwhile the far left posters are literal apologists/excuse makers for this behavior, seeking to cast Israel as just as bad, or somehow deserving of this. Quite an eye opening thread to be sure.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

Meanwhile, the Democratic Socialist of America (who want to seize the means of production), of which AOC is a member, have scheduled a rally in support of Hamas and the Palestinians.

https://www.newsweek.com/new-york-palestine-support-rally-condemned-governor-repugnant-1832922


"All out for Palestine!" The accompanying post, made by the People's Forum of New York, reads: "Tomorrow, join us to stand with the people of Palestine, who have the right to resist apartheid, occupation & oppression."

Maybe they're just trying to understand why this conflict happened? Or maybe both sides are just as bad?

[StoneTheCrow]

(10-08-2023, 12:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: In this thread moderates and conservatives universally condemn a vile terrorist organization and its deliberate targeting of civilians. Meanwhile the far left posters are literal apologists/excuse makers for this behavior, seeking to cast Israel as just as bad, or somehow deserving of this. Quite an eye opening thread to be sure.

Very fine people on both sides.

[Dill]

(10-08-2023, 12:37 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Meanwhile, the Democratic Socialist of America (who want to seize the means of production), of which AOC is a member, have scheduled a rally in support of Hamas and the Palestinians.
https://www.newsweek.com/new-york-palestine-support-rally-condemned-governor-repugnant-1832922
"All out for Palestine!" The accompanying post, made by the People's Forum of New York, reads: "Tomorrow, join us to stand with the people of Palestine, who have the right to resist apartheid, occupation & oppression."
Maybe they're just trying to understand why this conflict happened?  Or maybe both sides are just as bad?

I think your post has already been addressed.

(10-07-2023, 04:55 PM)Dill Wrote: When we hear of Israeli-Palestinian violence in the US press, it is usually framed as the former's response to something the latter did out of the blue. Israel's "right to self defense" is quickly affirmed. From our Right Wing there is an effort to block discussion of conditions on the ground and substantive public discussion of the conflict's history. What is the Gaza Strip? We only hear the name when rockets come out there, launched by some inexplicable anger which can be neither excused nor examined.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-08-2023, 12:47 PM)Dill Wrote: I think your post has already been addressed.

No, your apologist post does not address my point.  At all.  Keep defending/excusing the indefensible.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-08-2023, 12:41 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: Very fine people on both sides.

The parading nearly naked women through the streets, the rapes, the use of human shields, both Israeli and Palestinian, the direct targeting and assassination of civilians.  All of this allow no compromise with Hamas and their defenders.  The fact this is a dilemma for some here, and elsewhere, really shows you the rot at the core of the modern far left.

[Dill]

(10-08-2023, 12:49 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, your apologist post does not address my point.  At all.  Keep defending/excusing the indefensible.

Pardon. I should have said "describes."

(10-08-2023, 12:51 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The parading nearly naked women through the streets, the rapes, the use of human shields, both Israeli and Palestinian, the direct targeting and assassination of civilians.  All of this allow no compromise or compromise with Hamas and their defenders.  The fact this is a dilemma for some here, and elsewhere, really shows you the rot at the core of the modern far left.

The "rot at the core of the modern far left" comes from recognizing human rights as universal.

That means killing civilians is always bad, not just bad/inexcusable when Hamas does it.  

The fact that this is not a dilemma for some means the cycle of violence will likely continue, since root causes cannot be addressed
without recognizing the double standard of US/Israeli policy towards the Palestinians.

Hence the effort to frame out any connection between current violence and occupation. 

[NATI BENGALS]

(10-08-2023, 12:37 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Meanwhile, the Democratic Socialist of America (who want to seize the means of production), of which AOC is a member, have scheduled a rally in support of Hamas and the Palestinians.

https://www.newsweek.com/new-york-palestine-support-rally-condemned-governor-repugnant-1832922


"All out for Palestine!" The accompanying post, made by the People's Forum of New York, reads: "Tomorrow, join us to stand with the people of Palestine, who have the right to resist apartheid, occupation & oppression."

Maybe they're just trying to understand why this conflict happened? Or maybe both sides are just as bad?

Well here are words from AOCs statement yesterday.

“I condemn Hamas attack in the strongest possible terms.”

https://twitter.com/RepAOC/status/1710741263161364891

The GOP is definitely not letting this serious crisis go to waste trying to score political points. Republican national committee chair called the attacks a great opportunity for our candidates.

[StoneTheCrow]

(10-08-2023, 12:51 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: The parading nearly naked women through the streets, the rapes, the use of human shields, both Israeli and Palestinian, the direct targeting and assassination of civilians.  All of this allow no compromise or compromise with Hamas and their defenders.  The fact this is a dilemma for some here, and elsewhere, really shows you the rot at the core of the modern far left.

They also do an insanely good job of making one question whether or not one is taking batshit crazy pills on nearly every topic. I commend them for it.

[Arturo Bandini]

This is also why you never shutdown a government.

You don't put yourself in another Pearl Harbor's situation.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-08-2023, 12:51 PM)Dill Wrote: Pardon. I should have said "describes."


The "rot at the core of the modern far left" comes from recognizing human rights as universal.

That means killing civilians is always bad, not just bad/inexcusable when Hamas does it.  

The fact that this is not a dilemma for some means the cycle of violence will likely continue, since root causes cannot be addressed
without recognizing the double standard of US/Israeli policy towards the Palestinians.

Hence the effort to frame out any connection between current violence and occupation. 

I'm sure that's how you comfort yourself for siding with terrorists.  I'm sure the mental gymnastics needed to equate Israel to terrorists is exhausting.  Whatever injustices you believe Hamas to be reacting to, they in no way come close to justifying their response.  And if people like you are any indicator, trying to "understand" them is a waste of time.  We didn't take time to reflect and understand Imperial Japan after Pearl Harbor, we destroyed them.  A similar response is entirely appropriate in this case.  But you go one making excuses for the inexcusable.

(10-08-2023, 12:56 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Well here are words from AOCs statement yesterday.

“I condemn Hamas attack in the strongest possible terms.”

https://twitter.com/RepAOC/status/1710741263161364891

The GOP is definitely not letting this serious crisis go to waste trying to score political points. Republican national committee chair called the attacks a great opportunity for our candidates.

Good for her.  I suppose she'll be publicly condemning the group of which she is a member for their disgusting rally in support of terrorism then too.  As for scoring political points, it's not the GOP's fault that the more extreme members of the Dems are equating Hamas and the IDF, they're doing it to themselves.  Just as it is not the fault of the Dems when the more extreme GOP members step in it.

(10-08-2023, 01:03 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: They also do an insanely good job of making one question whether or not one is taking batshit crazy pills on nearly every topic. I commend them for it.

It is fascinating to see the hypocrisy of those who routinely condemn "both sides do it" arguments get full square behind a "both sides do it" defense of rape and murder.

[Dill]

(10-08-2023, 12:56 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Well here are words from AOCs statement yesterday.
“I condemn Hamas attack in the strongest possible terms.”
https://twitter.com/RepAOC/status/1710741263161364891
The GOP is definitely not letting this serious crisis go to waste trying to score political points. Republican national committee chair called the attacks a great opportunity for our candidates.

Everyone on "the modern far left" condemns the Hamas attacks in the strongest possible terms.
Hamas is the far right of the Palestinian movement--anti-abortion, anti-modern, anti-diplomacy Islamists.

They are the Palestinian counter part of the Israeli far right, which wants the West Bank and
Gaza ethnically cleansed and incorporated into Israel. These two groups tank peace proposals whenever possible.

What upsets our Right is that "the modern far left" also condemns Israeli killing of civilians, occupation,
collective punishment, and illegal settlement. "Excuses" forbidden to Palestinians come fast and furious in defense of Israel.

So there is an "opportunity" for sure. Claim talk about the occupation "excuses" Hamas and maybe
defenders of human rights will back down. You don't want a lot of public discussion of that, if you want
to keep the current policy double standard unchanged. Give Israel 3 billion a year and call it "anti-semitism" if
someone wants strings attached--like progress on a two-state solution. This forum reflects the same dynamic
as our national politics--use Hamas to deflect critique of Israel and affirmation of Palestinian rights.

[StoneTheCrow]

(10-07-2023, 03:41 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I'm just waiting for The One Who Shall Not Be Named to get thrown into this somewhere. I know it's coming.

Blinken brings up possibility that Hamas, Hezbollah & Iran may be motivated to attack due to potential normalization of relations btw Israel & Saudi Arabia as well as Israel broadening its relationships with other countries. US normalization push began w/ Trump's Abraham accords https://t.co/iFZq2Tn86G

— Margaret Brennan (@margbrennan) October 8, 2023

[Dill]

(10-08-2023, 01:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: We didn't take time to reflect and understand Imperial Japan after Pearl Harbor, we destroyed them.  A similar response is entirely appropriate in this case.  But you go one making excuses for the inexcusable.

We didn't occupy Japan, BEFORE they attacked us, did we? 

And then after we "destroyed them" we gave their country back and helped them rebuild it.

We didn't push all the Japanese onto Okninawa and then blockade them in.

(10-08-2023, 01:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I'm sure that's how you comfort yourself for siding with terrorists.  I'm sure the mental gymnastics needed to equate Israel to terrorists is exhausting.  Whatever injustices you believe Hamas to be reacting to, they in no way come close to justifying their response.  And if people like you are any indicator, trying to "understand" them is a waste of time. 

Hamas reaction may be unjustified, but it is not disconnected from Israeli injustice.
Recognizing the connection is necessary for any viable and permanent solution to the conflict.
You are not for that sort of solution though. 

If you are to be believed I have also sided with ANTIFA, MS 13, and ISIS, and now "the terrorists." 
Maybe the Taliban too (I'd have to go back and check).

So we've reached the limit of your contribution to the thread: analysis = excuses/waste of time+"siding with terrorists."
You aren't equipped to move beyond this. You can only repeat it, more loudly perhaps.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(10-08-2023, 02:01 PM)Dill Wrote: We didn't occupy Japan, BEFORE they attacked us, did we? 

And then after we "destroyed them" we gave their country back and helped them rebuild it.

We didn't push all the Japanese onto Okninawa and then blockade them in.


Hamas reaction may be unjustified, but it is not disconnected from Israeli injustice.
Recognizing the connection is necessary for any viable and permanent solution to the conflict.
You are not for that sort of solution though. 

If you are to be believed I have also sided with ANTIFA, MS 13, and ISIS, and now "the terrorists." 
Maybe the Taliban too (I'd have to go back and check).

So we've reached the limit of your contribution to the thread: analysis = excuses/waste of time+"siding with terrorists."
You aren't equipped to move beyond this. You can only repeat it, more loudly perhaps.

Hamas is not in it to stop attacking Israel, not interested in Peace at all, even if you give them everything they want, they'd just want more and find another round of excuses to attack Israel. In order for any peace over there, People and terrorist organizations that behave like this need to be completely destroyed.

[Matt_Crimson]

The US is now apparently moving warships and aircraft toward Israel.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-08-2023, 02:01 PM)Dill Wrote: If you are to be believed I have also sided with ANTIFA, MS 13, and ISIS, and now "the terrorists." 
Maybe the Taliban too (I'd have to go back and check).

So we've reached the limit of your contribution to the thread: analysis = excuses/waste of time+"siding with terrorists."
You aren't equipped to move beyond this. You can only repeat it, more loudly perhaps.

No one needs to take my word for it, they need only read your posts.  Yes, it is odd how you routinely attempt to mitigate the actions of vile organizations.  As to your opinion on what I'm equipped to do, it means less than nothing to me.  I'll still be here, pointing out your apologist posts for rapists and murderers.

Interesting to me that you have "the terrorists" in quotes, as if there's actually a debate as to whether Hamas is a terrorist organization or not.  

[basballguy]

(10-08-2023, 02:01 PM)Dill Wrote: Hamas reaction may be unjustified, but it is not disconnected from Israeli injustice.
Recognizing the connection is necessary for any viable and permanent solution to the conflict.
You are not for that sort of solution though. 

Fairly certain Israel, no matter how much people disagree with them, has never slaughtered a bunch of people at a music festival....which is mostly young adults

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/music-festival-revelers-israeli-desert-became-victims-hamas-militants-rcna119394

It's like trying to find reason in Hitler's actions...there is none.