Hamas Attacks Israel: 70 Israelis, 198 Palestinians Dead

[Belsnickel]

(10-08-2023, 10:49 AM)Sled21 Wrote: That's actually not an argument, it is a fact. Iran didn't waste any time sending Hamas those rockets. And now the Hezbos are attacking

No, it isn't. None of that $6 billion has been touched. Unspent money isn't fungible.

[Belsnickel]

This is truly a travesty. One thing is for certain, and that is that many, if not most of the casualties on either side of this conflict will be innocent people. This is the, what, fifth war Hamas has stirred up since 2007? I fear that this will be worse than any of the others, though. As much as I denounce Israeli actions, there is no excuse for what Hamas has done, here.

The lack of intelligence on this is very surprising. A lot of the analysis I have read and heard has talked about how Netanyahu is known for his ability to know about these sorts of things, especially in these occupied areas. There are questions about whether this will strengthen or weaken Netanyahu as things move away from the immediate response phase. Will he be blamed for the failure or will the country rally around him? That is the part that will be interesting to see.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-08-2023, 07:05 PM)basballguy Wrote: Fairly certain Israel, no matter how much people disagree with them, has never slaughtered a bunch of people at a music festival....which is mostly young adults

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/music-festival-revelers-israeli-desert-became-victims-hamas-militants-rcna119394

This is business as usual for these terrorists.  Yet, some continue to equate these atrocities to the actions of the IDF.  The IDF is certainly not above reproach, and has engaged in some questionable actions to be sure,  But there is zero equivalence here, zero.  Anyone trying to draw such a comparison is at best an apologist for terrorism.

Quote:It's like trying to find reason in Hitler's actions...there is none.  

As stated many times, I very much dislike such comparisons.  Especially in this case, as there were absolutely reasons for Hitler's actions.  He laid them out very obviously in his book and his his public statements.  If there is a comparison to be drawn, it is that they both absolutely state(d) their intentions. But such a comparison is not needed.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-08-2023, 07:49 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is truly a travesty. One thing is for certain, and that is that many, if not most of the casualties on either side of this conflict will be innocent people. This is the, what, fifth war Hamas has stirred up since 2007? I fear that this will be worse than any of the others, though. As much as I denounce Israeli actions, there is no excuse for what Hamas has done, here.

Most certainly, and I hope Israel is able to muster some restraint in this regard.  Although Hamas's tendency to use civilians as human shields makes this hope a rather fragile one.  And my thanks to you for condemning Hamas without trying to equivocate, not that I would have expected that from you.  Several members of "The Squad" have really tied themselves in knots trying to both condemn Hamas and equate them to the actions of the IDF.  To me this is reprehensible.

Quote:The lack of intelligence on this is very surprising. A lot of the analysis I have read and heard has talked about how Netanyahu is known for his ability to know about these sorts of things, especially in these occupied areas. There are questions about whether this will strengthen or weaken Netanyahu as things move away from the immediate response phase. Will he be blamed for the failure or will the country rally around him? That is the part that will be interesting to see.

An overlooked point in this regard, and I am not trying to make a political statement out of this, is the failure of our own intelligence agencies in this regard.  Israel is certainly more laser focused on this region than us, for obvious reasons.  But our intelligence budget dwarfs theirs and apparently we had no inkling as well.  Interesting to say the least.

[Millhouse]

(10-08-2023, 07:05 PM)basballguy Wrote: Fairly certain Israel, no matter how much people disagree with them, has never slaughtered a bunch of people at a music festival....which is mostly young adults

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/music-festival-revelers-israeli-desert-became-victims-hamas-militants-rcna119394

It's like trying to find reason in Hitler's actions...there is none.  

I was reading about that music festival on CNN during halftime. Just awful. All retaliation against Hamas will be be completely backed by the west and our allies (that rely on our military umbrella hovering over them). Unfortunately there will be a lot of innocent deaths and hardships to come.

[basballguy]

(10-08-2023, 08:39 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I was reading about that music festival on CNN during halftime. Just awful. All retaliation against Hamas will be be completely backed by the west and our allies (that rely on our military umbrella hovering over them). Unfortunately there will be a lot of innocent deaths and hardships to come.

And it was an EDM festival which caters more to the younger crowds...just out there slaughtering kids like it's nothing.  

[basballguy]

Was the title updated? I find it odd that it now has a title that implies Israel has killed more than Palestine. I don't seem to recall it being that when it was posted...

[Millhouse]

(10-08-2023, 08:46 PM)basballguy Wrote: Was the title updated?  I find it odd that it now has a title that implies Israel has killed more than Palestine.  I don't seem to recall it being that when it was posted...

There shouldn't be a dead tally in the title. I honestly don't know the reason why it would be included, and now updated apparently.

edit: If it wasn't changed my bad. But still don't understand why it was included to begin with.

[*pally*]

(10-08-2023, 08:46 PM)basballguy Wrote: Was the title updated?  I find it odd that it now has a title that implies Israel has killed more than Palestine.  I don't seem to recall it being that when it was posted...

as far as I remember that was the original title of the thread

[basballguy]

(10-08-2023, 08:58 PM)pally Wrote: as far as I remember that was the original title of the thread

Those numbers don't really match the original stories.....wonder where they came from.

[*pally*]

(10-08-2023, 09:06 PM)basballguy Wrote: Those numbers don't really match the original stories.....wonder where they came from.

post #9 in the thread had those numbers.  It was posted around 2:20 PM on Sunday so the title may have been updated around then.  I saw it for the first time around 3.

Quote:On CNN it says 70 Israelis dead, 198 Palestinians dead from Israeli response. 

[basballguy]

(10-08-2023, 09:11 PM)pally Wrote: post #9 in the thread had those numbers.  It was posted around 2:20 PM on Sunday so the title may have been updated around then.  I saw it for the first time around 3.

I mean it's things like that which create negative perceptions.  Someone makes the conscious effort to update a title which depicts Israel as being more aggressive but when it's clear that's not the case, you no longer have time to update the title?  It's petty.  

[Belsnickel]

(10-08-2023, 08:36 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: An overlooked point in this regard, and I am not trying to make a political statement out of this, is the failure of our own intelligence agencies in this regard.  Israel is certainly more laser focused on this region than us, for obvious reasons.  But our intelligence budget dwarfs theirs and apparently we had no inkling as well.  Interesting to say the least.

While we certainly have our own HUMINT sources in the area, because of our closeness with Israel we do rely heavily on them for the network in the region. Bibi has gone big brother in Gaza in a serious way and is called "Mr. Security" as a result of it. To be clear, if our intelligence community was unaware of the plans that is shocking as well. However, and maybe I am a little bit of a conspiracy theorist here, but there is a small, not tiny, but small part of me that thinks we had an idea something was up. I don't know why, but I just feel like there is such a small chance something this significant and complex was planned without either the US or Israel knowing.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-08-2023, 10:02 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: While we certainly have our own HUMINT sources in the area, because of our closeness with Israel we do rely heavily on them for the network in the region. Bibi has gone big brother in Gaza in a serious way and is called "Mr. Security" as a result of it. To be clear, if our intelligence community was unaware of the plans that is shocking as well. However, and maybe I am a little bit of a conspiracy theorist here, but there is a small, not tiny, but small part of me that thinks we had an idea something was up. I don't know why, but I just feel like there is such a small chance something this significant and complex was planned without either the US or Israel knowing.

You'll please forgive me for feeding the flames, but I had a similar thought.  It would not shock me at all if this attack was known, or at least suspected, and absorbing the initial blow was deemed acceptable due to the leeway for response it would supply.  I would add, for others, that this in no way excuses the attacks.  But quite simply, if you're looking to crush Hamas and sway global sentiment heavily in your favor than this attack could not be more prefect.  It also heavily discredits any pro-Palestinian movements in other countries.  This could be a case of Hamas and Iran playing themselves.

[JustWinBaby]

(10-08-2023, 10:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You'll please forgive me for feeding the flames, but I had a similar thought.  It would not shock me at all if this attack was known, or at least suspected, and absorbing the initial blow was deemed acceptable due to the leeway for response it would supply.  I would add, for others, that this in no way excuses the attacks.  But quite simply, if you're looking to crush Hamas and sway global sentiment heavily in your favor than this attack could not be more prefect.  It also heavily discredits any pro-Palestinian movements in other countries.  This could be a case of Hamas and Iran playing themselves.

That makes a scary amount of sense.

But it smells like a conspiracy theory, and I don't want to normalize MAGA so....

[*pally*]

(10-08-2023, 10:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You'll please forgive me for feeding the flames, but I had a similar thought.  It would not shock me at all if this attack was known, or at least suspected, and absorbing the initial blow was deemed acceptable due to the leeway for response it would supply.  I would add, for others, that this in no way excuses the attacks.  But quite simply, if you're looking to crush Hamas and sway global sentiment heavily in your favor than this attack could not be more prefect.  It also heavily discredits any pro-Palestinian movements in other countries.  This could be a case of Hamas and Iran playing themselves.

to further add to that conspiracy idea...an attack on Israel certainly would take the pressure off of Netanyahu's internal domestic problems.  Can't worry about what he is doing to their Justice Department when there is a war to fight.

[Luvnit2]

I am devastated for Israel's 9/11. My prayers to the innocent who have died. It appears we have lost Americans in the attack as well. I am also devastated in this thread it is more about placing blame on Israel and siding with known terrorists.

War has been declared and sadly this is likely the beginning to mass death.

My heart hurts for the innocent, on both sides.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(10-08-2023, 11:43 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I am devastated for Israel's 9/11. My prayers to the innocent who have died. It appears we have lost Americans in the attack as well. I am also devastated in this thread it is more about placing blame on Israel and siding with known terrorists.

War has been declared and sadly this is likely the beginning to mass death.

My heart hurts for the innocent, on both sides.

I agree, the people on both sides want to live there together in peace. 

Hamas will never allow that, and will only come to the table when his butts been kicked and he needs to buy time to save his butt. He did that before, he'll do it again. If they reach that point again, they should just straight up take him out. But lefties will cry cause they will say He wants Peace and Israel doesn't! 

[Dill]

(10-08-2023, 05:07 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No one needs to take my word for it, they need only read your posts.  Yes, it is odd how you routinely attempt to mitigate the actions of vile organizations.  As to your opinion on what I'm equipped to do, it means less than nothing to me.  I'll still be here, pointing out your apologist posts for rapists and murderers.
Interesting to me that you have "the terrorists" in quotes, as if there's actually a debate as to whether Hamas is a terrorist organization or not.  

I've already condemned Hamas' actions. People need only read my posts.

Aside from your factual inaccuracies and one-sided representations (e.g. Hamas uses human shields), 

where you and I really disagree is on your selective application of basic human rights.

It's that selective application which makes "vile organizations" vile. 

NOT the equal application of human rights to all ethnic groups, 

which is what you are actually objecting to when "pointing out" my "apologist posts."

[Dill]

(10-08-2023, 11:43 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I am devastated for Israel's 9/11. My prayers to the innocent who have died. It appears we have lost Americans in the attack as well. I am also devastated in this thread it is more about placing blame on Israel and siding with known terrorists.

War has been declared and sadly this is likely the beginning to mass death.

My heart hurts for the innocent, on both sides.

Which post and which poster "blames Israel" and sides with "known terrorists"/