So, I've been thinking a fair amount, lately, and I'm concerned I'm becoming a bit of a conspiracy theorist. It's no secret I'm a bit of a leftist with some strong anti-capitalist leanings, but I saw some posts online and have had some conversations that really made me start thinking about our current system. I was talking about policies that could be enacted to all but eliminate homelessness. We talked about single-payer healthcare/Medicare for all. We talked about a stronger social safety net and things like codifying food as a basic human right (there is a legislator in WV that has introduced legislation saying this).
Ever since that conversation where we discussed these policies and the barriers to them I have been thinking about that and the two party structure along with the corporatocracy that exists here in the US and I came to this realization that these things will never come to fruition because of implausibility. They system we have in this country relies on homelessness and insurance tied to employment because it creates a fear that keeps people working. It fills the exploitation engines of our capitalist system. These corporations need us to fear the potential to become homeless and unable to afford food or medical treatment because without that fear they would have to actually compensate us fairly for our labor. Instead, we are reliant on them to provide us these things so we are willing to accept less than we are really worth. We are willing to tolerate conditions that would otherwise be intolerable.
Am I sounding off the rails? This has just been on my mind, lately, and it's been making me feel a little depressed.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(12-08-2021, 09:56 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, I've been thinking a fair amount, lately, and I'm concerned I'm becoming a bit of a conspiracy theorist. It's no secret I'm a bit of a leftist with some strong anti-capitalist leanings, but I saw some posts online and have had some conversations that really made me start thinking about our current system. I was talking about policies that could be enacted to all but eliminate homelessness. We talked about single-payer healthcare/Medicare for all. We talked about a stronger social safety net and things like codifying food as a basic human right (there is a legislator in WV that has introduced legislation saying this).
Ever since that conversation where we discussed these policies and the barriers to them I have been thinking about that and the two party structure along with the corporatocracy that exists here in the US and I came to this realization that these things will never come to fruition because of implausibility. They system we have in this country relies on homelessness and insurance tied to employment because it creates a fear that keeps people working. It fills the exploitation engines of our capitalist system. These corporations need us to fear the potential to become homeless and unable to afford food or medical treatment because without that fear they would have to actually compensate us fairly for our labor. Instead, we are reliant on them to provide us these things so we are willing to accept less than we are really worth. We are willing to tolerate conditions that would otherwise be intolerable.
Am I sounding off the rails? This has just been on my mind, lately, and it's been making me feel a little depressed.
Stop doubting yourself.
Also, why not regard "implausibility" as a question rather than an answer? What makes a fairer system seem implausible to Americans, to which Americans especially, and why? I know you've been working over those questions, but it sounds like your current inquiries are leading to hope-killing dead ends.
European countries like Germany are capitalist for sure, based on exploitation of labor--and yet the social safety net is so much better there than here. How is it that the German corporate class turns a profit without relying on fear of homelessness and employment-tied insurance? Why don't high wages harm their balance of trade? Perhaps more importantly, why don't German workers accept the same level of exploitation as US? Do German workers defend corporate profit rates the way US workers do?
Exploitive innovations, like co-pays for health insurance and pensions based on stock investments seem to cross national boundaries easily. Why not the reverse?
I don't have time to go into greater detail at the moment, but I've often urged Americans to widen their consideration of health care options beyond the binary of "single-payer" vs "what-we-have-now." I have discussed the German system here before, which is not single-payer, but buttresses a private insurance industry rather like our own with non-profit coops. No medical bankruptcies there.
Back in the early 70s, that RINO-socialist Nixon started us down a similar road by instituting HMOs, but by the early 80s these were being converted to "profitable" concerns, and promptly began innovating new ways to raise fees and reduce payouts to create that profit. Helping people understand why "market-based solutions" and for profit status can diminish public/service institutions while raising their costs (think of higher-ed and the military here, as well as health care) could be a positive goal of people like ourselves.
(12-08-2021, 09:56 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, I've been thinking a fair amount, lately, and I'm concerned I'm becoming a bit of a conspiracy theorist. It's no secret I'm a bit of a leftist with some strong anti-capitalist leanings, but I saw some posts online and have had some conversations that really made me start thinking about our current system. I was talking about policies that could be enacted to all but eliminate homelessness. We talked about single-payer healthcare/Medicare for all. We talked about a stronger social safety net and things like codifying food as a basic human right (there is a legislator in WV that has introduced legislation saying this).
Ever since that conversation where we discussed these policies and the barriers to them I have been thinking about that and the two party structure along with the corporatocracy that exists here in the US and I came to this realization that these things will never come to fruition because of implausibility. They system we have in this country relies on homelessness and insurance tied to employment because it creates a fear that keeps people working. It fills the exploitation engines of our capitalist system. These corporations need us to fear the potential to become homeless and unable to afford food or medical treatment because without that fear they would have to actually compensate us fairly for our labor. Instead, we are reliant on them to provide us these things so we are willing to accept less than we are really worth. We are willing to tolerate conditions that would otherwise be intolerable.
Am I sounding off the rails? This has just been on my mind, lately, and it's been making me feel a little depressed.
I doubt you're wrong but here's my two cents regarding homelessness and insurance tied to work as motivators:
I think people in general want to work, or at least be productive. I think psychologically and not just from a survival standpoint, most people need work. When I was a kid, most adults I knew had blue-collar jobs with great insurance and retirement plans (specifically railroad jobs). They worried about financial issues ad security to be sure, but not like people in similar jobs do today. Most of them were not knowledgeable about investment nor did they think they needed to be. The prices of the durable goods they bought were significant, but not necessarily crippling. Most of them did not depend on credit to meet basic financial needs. If they couldn't afford something they really wanted, they simply didn't buy it. If they wanted more money, they worked overtime and lots of it.
To cut to the chase, they were motivated to work because they saw it as a means to improve their lives vs a means just to survive. These days, with the cost of medical expenses, durable goods, and even recreation skyrocketing, people who are just willing to work hard have a tough time getting by without incurring debt. One might say that they need to improve their value to the workforce, and I'd agree, but there are always going to be baseline workers that both the labor market and businesses selling goods and services depend on to continue being productive and profitable.
What I see after the pandemic is a particular segment of the population that was once a dependable source of cheap labor by default just saying screw it. What's more, nobody is stepping in to fill the void of their absence. I've seen fluidity of labor and fear on the part of employers that I never would have imagined even 5 years ago. I see way more homelessness and panhandling than I can ever remember and in places I've never seen it before. It's reaching into suburban areas.
I never thought I'd say this, but I think a segment of the population actually doesn't care if they are homeless or not. It's become a lifestyle to some that just don't want to work shitty low paying jobs anymore. Scary as hell.
Schrodinger's poor person - the person you fear you will become if you rock the boat and stop being grateful for your slave wages....also you are poor because while you work all day he sits on his couch and eats lobster and smokes weed.
(12-08-2021, 09:56 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, I've been thinking a fair amount, lately, and I'm concerned I'm becoming a bit of a conspiracy theorist. It's no secret I'm a bit of a leftist with some strong anti-capitalist leanings, but I saw some posts online and have had some conversations that really made me start thinking about our current system. I was talking about policies that could be enacted to all but eliminate homelessness. We talked about single-payer healthcare/Medicare for all. We talked about a stronger social safety net and things like codifying food as a basic human right (there is a legislator in WV that has introduced legislation saying this).
Ever since that conversation where we discussed these policies and the barriers to them I have been thinking about that and the two party structure along with the corporatocracy that exists here in the US and I came to this realization that these things will never come to fruition because of implausibility. They system we have in this country relies on homelessness and insurance tied to employment because it creates a fear that keeps people working. It fills the exploitation engines of our capitalist system. These corporations need us to fear the potential to become homeless and unable to afford food or medical treatment because without that fear they would have to actually compensate us fairly for our labor. Instead, we are reliant on them to provide us these things so we are willing to accept less than we are really worth. We are willing to tolerate conditions that would otherwise be intolerable.
Am I sounding off the rails? This has just been on my mind, lately, and it's been making me feel a little depressed.
You guys need a social revolution.
You never had it.
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
(12-08-2021, 03:29 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: You guys need a social revolution.
You never had it.
The problem is that too many people don't think it needs to happen.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
I agree with the medical issue, but you lost me a little with the homelessness. I've always seen it as more of an issue of our attitude toward investing, our lack of cost of living controls and the overall grossly inflated housing market.
(12-08-2021, 03:43 PM)Benton Wrote: I agree with the medical issue, but you lost me a little with the homelessness. I've always seen it as more of an issue of our attitude toward investing, our lack of cost of living controls and the overall grossly inflated housing market.
So, you're right, but go a little deeper. Think about who makes those decisions about how we invest our money in the governmental budget and who decides that we don't have those CoL controls. Where do our policymakers put our money? They invest in things that benefit the corporations in this company. They have made the decision to prioritize funding the military industrial complex over funding to secure affordable housing for the population. Funding the MIC means they need workers, but they aren't going to get workers doing the lower end jobs for the compensation and conditions they offer if those workers aren't afraid of being homeless.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(12-08-2021, 03:43 PM)Benton Wrote: I agree with the medical issue, but you lost me a little with the homelessness. I've always seen it as more of an issue of our attitude toward investing, our lack of cost of living controls and the overall grossly inflated housing market.
Not to mention our complete disregard and stigmatization of mental health issues and our corporate zeal for simultaneously pushing and demonizing drug dependence.
(12-08-2021, 03:58 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Not to mention our complete disregard and stigmatization of mental health issues and our corporate zeal for simultaneously pushing and demonizing drug dependence.
A big issue is certainly drug use. Was it 100,000 people died in a year from drug use? I see people standing on the corner and a lot of that is from drug use. I think to myself, you know there are 20 locations within a few blocks, looking for workers.....but I think a lot of these people have done more than just drug use....they did some kind of petty theft to support their habit also....and that means they probably have some kind of police record which hurts their job chances. So I don't know what the answer is. We almost need a new idea with rehab centers to get people pointed in the right direction. Because standing on a corner doesn't fix things and I don't think me giving them a buck or two is solving the problem.
(12-08-2021, 04:13 PM)Goalpost Wrote: A big issue is certainly drug use. Was it 100,000 people died in a year from drug use? I see people standing on the corner and a lot of that is from drug use. I think to myself, you know there are 20 locations within a few blocks, looking for workers.....but I think a lot of these people have done more than just drug use....they did some kind of petty theft to support their habit also....and that means they probably have some kind of police record which hurts their job chances. So I don't know what the answer is. We almost need a new idea with rehab centers to get people pointed in the right direction. Because standing on a corner doesn't fix things and I don't think me giving them a buck or two is solving the problem.
The opioid epidemic is a ***** nightmare right now. Appalachia is being decimated by it and there isn't nearly enough being done to help the issue.
As for the whole idea that it's petty theft or whatever, it isn't just that. When they are so hooked on these drugs they can't maintain a job most of the time. They become unreliable as employees by showing up late or not at all. When they are there, they can create a safety issue for themselves and others.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
I thought it was common knowledge that corporations are against anti- homeless and anti- starvation measures because the threat of those two things are the only things that keep making people work for 7 dollars an hour doing degrading work where neither the employers nor customers appreciate you.
You make some solid points but, in my opinion, the biggest intentional move to hold down the US worker was the government (both parties) teaming up with corporations to outsource manufacturing jobs that blue collar workers could actually raise a family on to slave labor countries like China. Making the US a service industry nation completely decimated the earning potential of the non-skilled blue collar worker.
As to the opiate crisis, that's oddly far less of an issue here than it is in the Midwest and eastward. We certainly deal with it, but nothing like on the same scale.
(12-08-2021, 07:30 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You make some solid points but, in my opinion, the biggest intentional move to hold down the US worker was the government (both parties) teaming up with corporations to outsource manufacturing jobs that blue collar workers could actually raise a family on to slave labor countries like China. Making the US a service industry nation completely decimated the earning potential of the non-skilled blue collar worker.
As to the opiate crisis, that's oddly far less of an issue here than it is in the Midwest and eastward. We certainly deal with it, but nothing like on the same scale.
Oh yeah, that neo-liberal/conservative bullshit was a big blow to middle America. As for the opioids, it has been a huge problem in Appalachia as that is where the pharmaceutical companies pushing their wonder drugs really targeted things. They marketed it (Oxy) for chronic pain and sold it as less addictive than other opioids. Problem is, they were full of shit. They went into these poor communities with folks in lots of pain from working in the mills and the mines. Then they got addicted and they couldn't get the pills anymore and the story goes on.
I've done some research on the topic for a policy memo and it's just devastating. I don't know how my city has managed, but we have the epidemic all around us but it hasn't hit our county hard. It's in the counties north of us, and in the counties south and west of us, but not here in the same numbers. I can only guess it is because we have a decent labor market which has prevented the despondency of a terrible economic situation fostering a sense of hopelessness that has really helped push the crisis into the levels we see in some areas.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(12-09-2021, 11:09 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I still think computers and machines are going to take over so many jobs that the government will have to support the people who can’t contribute.
Or we generate a whole new level of underclass that politicians will convince us are there because they're lazy.
(12-08-2021, 07:30 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: As to the opiate crisis, that's oddly far less of an issue here than it is in the Midwest and eastward. We certainly deal with it, but nothing like on the same scale.
I regularly drive through Kensington ave when I have to go from my shop to lowes. Its apocalyptic to say the least.
(12-09-2021, 11:09 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I still think computers and machines are going to take over so many jobs that the government will have to support the people who can’t contribute.
The big one, and ne they are really working hard to achieve, is the automation of trucking. Once that happens, and it's a matter of when not if, then you'll see major employment issues for blue collar types. it's why i keep saying that illegal immigration is not good, regardless of it temporarily keeping prices low. We're going to have a real crises of low to semi-skilled workers in this country very soon. Importing more of them now will only make that crises worse when it inevitably occurs.
(12-10-2021, 04:19 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: I regularly drive through Kensington ave when I have to go from my shop to lowes. Its apocalyptic to say the least.
You can't help but feel for these people.
We certainly have areas like that. Hell, these is a part of Los Angeles literally called Skid Row, it's on the map. It perfectly resembles this and it's a large area. Not caused by the opiate crises, but other, similar causes to be sure. It's an extremely unsafe area, your standard citizen should avoid it like the plague.
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